Loads of Questions for Suby fans....might get quite a discussion going!

I have recently test driven both of the wagons (base models). The major differences:

- the Outback is quieter on the road, about 3-4 dbA quieter at 100 kph.

- the Outback has a better equipment spec, and sits a bit higher. Limited slip differential, roof rack bars, and a few other items.

The similarities are larger. They both handle fine on the road, the Legacy a bit better than the Outback, IMO, simply because it's a bit lower. (The Outback is just a Legacy that's got a raised suspension, basically.)

I prefer the manual transmission, finding the Subaru automatic a bit crude (though based on everything I've read and heard, quite reliable).

Compete in what way? The finish levels are *quite* different, but for driving in the snow and general handling, the Impreza can compete easily. Not as sophisticated a car, but *very* effective.

Larry Van Wormer

If you have the dough and want to get a stick get an A4 Quattro. I haven't driven one, but I suspect just about anything should be better than a Subaru 5sp (the slick Subaru 6sp in STi for example :-))) I might be in minority here but I absolutely *hate* the rubbery shifter feel in my Impreza. Automatic should be just fine and that's what I should've got. Anyhow, if you are in the US #2 is not an option. AWD A3 is not sold in the US I think. And for a good reason: A3 (in europe) and TT have a shitty Quattro variety: Haldex. It's the system that does not work in Volvo (and now should not work in the same way in Ford

500).

The Outback has stiffer springs and more ground clearance. Better for off-road. But it handles more like a truck than the Legacy. The Legacy wagon sits lower, has a smoother ride, plus sportier handling. Both have AWD, so if it just snow and ice you are worrying about getting stuck in, either one will do.

For me, the Legacy was the better choice, especially given that the Outback costs several thousand more. I would rather have the sporty handl> Hello everyone, I have been scanning the posts in this NG for the past

On 2006-04-02, Body Roll penned:

Friends of mine with Audis complain of frequent and expensive maintenance/repair costs.

I have a 5sp WRX wagon, and I certainly don't associate words like "rubbery" with the shifting. The turbo lag is a little annoying, but the shifting itself feels fine ...

I also don't know how the WRX shifting compares to the regular Impreza compares to the Legacy ...

I agree with Monique - plus, if they upgraded the rest of the Impreza line like the '06 WRX, it has a shorter shifter now and better first gear synchros. I cannot comment about how it actually feels as it is my first 5spd soob. Take a look at

for some of the 'new' features over the '05s.

maybe you could rent an Audi and a soob for a weekend? Also, if you trade often, I'd investigate the resale value of the models you're interested in. Have fun with your new car!

Carl

1 Lucky Texan

I'm not a friend of yours, but the maintenance on my 98.5 Audi 2.8 A4 Quattro has not been frequent. It has, I admit, been expensive when needed, but overall, I am satisfied with the tradeoff: I have a very reliable car (it's never stranded me and now has 97k miles), and the repairs were known issues with the marque. The car drives like a dream and is a joy to travel in over long distances and in severely bad winter weather (where I live, in western New York). My personal vehicle has experienced far fewer incidences of these known issues, so it has cost me less to keep running, an average of about $1,500 a year, excluding oil/filter changes and tires. I can't buy a new car on that kind of budget, and I love this car.

FYI, I also run a 99 Subaru Legacy OBW which has had its own repair/maintenance needs, and those have been not very much less expensive than the Audi. The Audi is the superior vehicle, but the Subaru is very good.

My understanding is that WRX has the same transmission and the throttle linkage. Anyhow I should not be too harsh on them. After all the buttery Honda or at least Mazda shifter feel is not easy to replicate. My problem is that they DO have a 6sp in STi that is snickety snick. And they had it for what? 3-4 years in a mass produced car? Probably more because it was available outside the US for long before then and was selling in no small numbers there either. And what they did to improve the shifter feel on the rest of the impreza line? Exactly. NOTHING. My Protege that cost about half to 2/3 of what OBS was bought for and was made a few years before OBS shifts about two times better.

Anyhow, to pacify you a little big about the turbo lag issue in WRX: the engine in the normally aspirated impreza does not feel any better. You press the go pedal and nothing happens until the needle hits about 3.5-4k. Then it pulls. But the engine revs soooo unwillingly.

Subs are just specialized vehicles for people who live in bundocks. If you live in a snowbelt and have to go on gravel roads to reach your home you'd probably worship the car. But I live in a sunbelt and drive mostly on paved roads. Sooo, until Sub attends to the fun to drive issue in their mundane lineup I'd say the increased sales in the sunbelt that they started to covet recently hopefully ain't gonna happen.

After all, people are not stupid. They read car magazines. And what do reviews say? I haven't seen a single glowing review of impreza (save for the $$$$$ STi) in a loooong time. Why? Because Subaru had been sitting on its ass for more a decade doing NOTHING to significantly improve the base Impreza. Which is understandable, given that they sell maybe

25000 or Imprezas a year of which there are probably 18000 WRXes anyway. That is not to say that I think that slapping a turbo on a base impreza and improving the spring stiffness by a whopping 15% makes the car that much more fun to drive.

And the final drop: does anyone know why exactly did they have to remove the lock from the gate of the wagon? Having to use the switch on the front door to open the gate absolutely drives me nuts.

I live at a ski resort, and it's "still" snowing here. Every other car here is an Outback or Legacy. The sporty set likes the WRX, as it's an all year round sports car for this climate, but we do have our share of Porsche's and Ferrari's. We even have an Enzo.

I recently traded an older Subaru Loyale 4WD for a later model Outback. Haven't had much trouble with either, and the sheriff's dept. also drives Outback's. The biggest problem I have with the car is finding mine in a parking lot among a sea of Subaru's.

While the Audi's and others are fine automobiles (I also have a Porsche) look at the stats. Subies are well respected in areas around the country where it snows a lot. Just put on a set of studdless ice tires and you're all set.

BTW, I did get to play with a navi system in a Lexus SUV. Worked like a charm here in Colorado.

Just mention "Brake Job" to a Quattro owner and watch him cringe...

..bwah haha...bwah hahahahahahah!

If that means in English: "You should've bought STi and did not bitch about the bag of sticks you got instead" I agree.

On 2006-04-03, Body Roll penned:

Well, I live close to the Rockies in Colorado. I chose the WRX carefully because it had what I wanted, which absolutely includes the ability to get me to ski areas in inclement weather and get me to trailheads in nice weather. It drives like hell when it's nice, and it makes nasty weather much less stressful. It's as much fun as you can have, I think, and still be able to drive with confidence in heavy snow.

Maybe you just chose ... poorly. My wagon is perfect for what I need. (Although there's a good chance I'll switch to an Outback wagon in a few years ... the extra space makes a difference.)

I'm not denying that the car is an absolute blast to drive on snow. It definitely is. Even with Crapenza 92.

Yes. Subaru needs to recoup all the money they spent into WRC and STI is a good vehicle for that. I should not have pinched pennies and got the STI. Nevermind the whale wing. I probably chose the place to live poorly also. Time to move where it snows :-(

One think I don't understand is the Ford participation in WRC. What do they get out of it? They don't have anything remotely close to the rally car in their lineup (and still sell tons of crap in spite of that: just check out the finance.yahoo.com article on Ford 2005/2006 sales today). Makes me wonder what all the pro American posters are bitching about. American auto makers still have a waaaay larger piece of pie than they deserve. Same goes for Toyota though. Sigh.

To answer the rest of your questions: I'll probably get slaughtered here, but I'd guess that Quattro in A4 is somewhat better than Subaru systems. Can anyone with

5sp A4 quattro comment how much driveline lash you have? Btw, do you plan to get a 5sp or an automatic?

I would prefer a 5sp, but after some more reading in these posts, am wondering if that will have an affect on how well the AWD system works....

If anything the Subaru AWD on 5sp should be better. If you're an engineer you might appreciate the fact that the front diff and the manual transmission share the same case. One fewer fluid to worry about.

Fit in finish on Impreza is impeccable. This is one area where Subaru did keep abreast the competition for the last 12 years.

A3 does not have AWD, what kind of competition there could be on snow? This kinda reminds me of an old commercial where a Sub guy goes to the Beemer guy scraping snow off his 3xx and goes "Wanna race???" THAT was priceless :-)))))

I somehow think that A3 would be more fun to drive when the roads are dry though. So I think the algorithm could be as follows: rent one of each of these:

1. Audi A3
2. Subaru Outback
3. Subaru Legacy
4. Subaru Legacy Wagon
5. Subaru Impreza Wagon
6. Audi A4 Quattro Sedan
7. Audi A4 Quatto Wagon
8. VW GTI for a day or two when it snows, repeat when it rains, then dries. Then go to a dealer and repeat for the models with the stick shift. In a month or two you'd decide what you want. What's the sales tax where you live?

I think you can safely skip these:

1. Audi A4 Sedan
2. Audi A4 Wagon in favor of A3. A4 with no quattro should be a lame duck.

I replied to this earlier and neglected to say that both cars in our family (the 98.5 A4 Quattro and the 99 Legacy OBW) are manual transmissions. Hope this clarifies. The clutch action and shifting in the Audi are just much more clear and crisp than in the Subaru, and we both feel this way. The Subaru feels more mushy and doesn't kick in as immediately as the Audi does. Love both cars, prefer the Audi.

On 2006-04-03, Sheldon penned:

I work in Boulder, and there are an awful lot of subarus in my office parking lot. A disturbing number of WRXes (only disturbing because it's weird to have a car that everyone else also owns). I think there are at least 5 WRX wagons in this 150ish person company; maybe more.

It's not unusual here in the front range to see packs of 3-4 subarus on the road; that's how common they are. While stopped at lights, I like to play "count the subarus."

(In contrast, when I go back East to VA, I play "try to find even a single car rack in all this damn traffic." It's a major big deal to find one.)

It's true that there are tons of Subarus in these kinds of places, but I don't know if that speaks to the effectiveness of their performance or of their marketing teams. Certainly the sheer number of Subarus in the area influenced my decision. They're also pretty affordable.