should I buy a subaru?

Those suspension/steering parts don't last forever in a Subaru either... After about 100 - 150k miles they usually need to be replaced.

The AWD system is very solid but susceptible to abuse and not inexpensive to repair. The head gaskets in the 96 and newer 2.5l engines have a higher-than- normal failure rate. Nothing catastrophic, but you've got to allow for the possibility of a $900 - $1200 repair job.

It's a great car, but it's not drive and forget like a Toyota, IMO.

Pretty long, if well taken care of.

Fine. The shifting action isn't overly tight (my experience with 95 Legacy) but the manual gearbox is way solid enough to handle the power of the stock engine.

florian

Those suspension/steering parts don't last forever in a Subaru either... After about 100 - 150k miles they usually need to be replaced.

The AWD system is very solid but susceptible to abuse and not inexpensive to repair. The head gaskets in the 96 and newer 2.5l engines seem to have a higher- than-normal failure rate. Nothing catastrophic, but you've got to allow for the possibility of a $900 - $1200 repair job.

It's a great car, but it's not drive and forget like a Toyota, IMO.

Pretty long, if well taken care of.

Fine. The shifting action isn't overly tight (my experience with 95 Legacy) but the manual gearbox is way solid enough to handle the power of the stock engine.

florian

Another person answered your other questions, including this one, but I wanted to comment that I have to say that I'm not crazy about Subaru's manual transmission compared with Toyota's or Honda's, which I think are slightly smoother and more efficient. Similar in feel, though. I much prefer the shifting on my '98 Audi A4 over my sweetie's '99 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon, but the Outback is an otherwise lovely car. Subarus are GREAT cars; my mother is about to buy her second, selling her '98 Legacy Outback LTD with 89,000 miles to get a 2005 2.5i (auto, though). Katie Schmitz Rochester, New York, USA klschmitz Uppercase2 frontiernet.net Still into xymergy in spirit, if not in action

Holly,

Since all the things you've mentioned (possibly excepting the clutch) are pretty standard for most cars coming up on the mileage you have on your Toyota, you might want to make a list and see what the overall cost is going to be to replace them. (Figure if you don't drive like a crazy person you should probably expect all but the tires to go another 100k miles) and compare that cost to the cost of replacement with a Subie that just might need many of the same things soon!

Also, you didn't mention which engine your Camry's got: if it's a 4, you might find the Subie a bit harder on gas, if a 6, perhaps little difference. The AWD eats some fuel, and I don't think Subies have ever sat at the top of the fuel economy charts regardless of model. And you'll find fewer people, and consequently probably higher prices, to work on your Subie. Plus Subaru's parts pipeline is "leisurely" compared to Toyota's (I have both a Subie and a Camry, and that's from my experience here in SoCal. I understand some parts of the country where Subies are more prevalent it's better.)

AWD is nice in cruddy conditions, like snow or a lot of rain. In dry climates, like SoCal where I live, it's less of a selling point.

Again, on your piece of paper, write down the safety features your Camry has that you wouldn't want to live without, then ask the Subie salesman which ones the '97 Legacy has.

Don't know about everybody's, but mine has 355k miles.

For shifting, I'd personally go Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru in that order. For longevity, Subaru's as good as any IME.

Best of luck deciding!

Rick

Financially, I think you are better off keeping the Camry. If you sell now, you are going to take a significant hit on the price given the work that needs to be done on it. I think that if you had the work done on the Camry, it might serve you well for many years. Even though I am a big Subaru fan, I don't think too many people would expect a Subaru to incur lower ongoing expense than the Camry as both cars age.

AWD is really not that much of a safety feature in typical driving, and unless you are a real driving enthusiast, you may not care about the handling / performance advantages of the Legacy.

Brings up an interesting question. I'd read that Subaru only has something like a 1% market share in the U.S. One would think it to be much higher judging by the number of them you see here in New England. Apparently there must be regions of the country where they are almost non-existent. While I've never had trouble getting thru snow with a FWD car, certainly 4WD is a strong marketing point.

They used to be real rust buckets, though they've seemed to have improved them in the last 10 yr. or so. Obviously not an issue in S. Calif.

Don't seem to see too many manuals anymore. My father had a '96 that was. It was OK, not great. Never cared for the feel of Japanese manuals to begin with.

It is true that I would only wish for AWD during a few nasty months in the winter - here in DC we get a lot of icy sleety rainy days instead of pure snow. But I've made it through many years with only a FWD so I suppose I could make do with my current car.

I know that cars with 80k miles do need suspension/etc. work on them... but the thing that is pushing me over the edge is the clutch. The car's clutch isn't technically broken, but the bearing is bad (I was told this by a mechanic). So it functions and will probably continue to do so for a long time, except a lot of force is required to use the clutch. So much so that it actually hurts my knee sometimes, and I am pretty athletic with no knee problems. If I'm wearing hiking boots it's ok, but when I'm heading to work in flimsy dress shoes, it drives me up a wall. It'll cost about $800 to fix it and I don't know if it will be 'nice' after spending all that money.

Another thing that really bugs me about the car are the shocks. I took it to a dealer just to have them tell me what was wrong with it, and they said the shocks are fine. The car bounces all over the road and bottoms out like crazy, and I can't even have a skinny person in the back seat without bottoming out while backing out of my driveway. That's ridiculous! So, either the dealer was wrong and they didn't really check the shocks (though how they didn't notice I have no idea) or the shocks really *are* fine, they're just supposed to be that bad. I looked on epinions and around the internet, and more than one person complains about their toyota's shocks, but not enough for me to figure out what's going on.

That's why part of me is wondering... if I'm going to spend all this money on repairs.. maybe I should do it for a car that I at least like, or feel like the repairs are going to work. I am just afraid of having landed myself a money pit of a car.

Thanks for all your input! I'm a little worried about what someone mentioned about head gaskets going easily. I don't know which is worse now, sound engine and crappy suspension, or the reverse! :)

If anyone else wants to share their subie experience, I'd be happy to read about it.

I'd be looking at 97-99 Legacy sedans (well I'm considering wagons too).

Holly

JAS_IL wrote: : Financially, I think you are better off keeping the Camry. If you sell : now, you are going to take a significant hit on the price given the : work that needs to be done on it. I think that if you had the work : done on the Camry, it might serve you well for many years. Even though : I am a big Subaru fan, I don't think too many people would expect a : Subaru to incur lower ongoing expense than the Camry as both cars age.

: AWD is really not that much of a safety feature in typical driving, : and unless you are a real driving enthusiast, you may not care about : the handling / performance advantages of the Legacy.

I see a surprising number--growing, is my impression--of Subarus here in southern California (Orange County, to be precise). Indeed, I believe the dealer where I purchased my Forester (Frank's Irvine Subaru, Lake Forest) at least one recent year was the fourth highest in sales nationally.

True, there aren't as many as I saw in Montana in summer 2003.

HW

Just wanted to echo Rick's earlier post. Note - I'm not a great Camry fan and now on my second Subie BUT if a shop you trust can give a reasonable quote for the work and a guarantee, then I'd keep the Camry IF it's a

4cyl. (6 costs too much to run). Get some shop recommendations and some reliable quotes then you can judge better. BTW if the ride is that bad then it sounds like you know more about suspension than the person who said it was ok! Get a clutch quote, a quote for four struts & a decent wheel alignment & then make a more informed decision. Should be a cheaper option. Cheers

Holly,

If you have a chance to test drive the Subie over some of the same roads you're familiar with, watch for this same problem. For quite a few years, Subaru seemed to think "soft springs, stiff shocks" was the way to go. Don't know when/if they got off that kick... I prefer stiffer springs to avoid the problems you described.

BTW, not to turn this into a full blown Toyota discussion, but I doubt your Camry should be bottoming out like you describe. Mine's an SE, with the stiffer suspension, and it's still on the original shocks at 218k mi (yeah, they're getting tired, but not shot yet) and it only bottoms on the same dips other cars do. You might ask about the springs and shocks from the SE package when making your list of costs.

Again, best of luck deciding!

Rick

Never buy the first run of a new model. I made that mistake with the first run of the Outback. I had to trade it in with only 60K miles on it as it was a real dog. Yeah, most of the problems were fixed under warrenty, but it waw a real pain in the butt.

Al

Thanks for all the advice, everyone! I'm still not sure what to do. But I am at least going to take the Toyota to a few shops and see what they estimate for repairs, and also see if I can find some Subie's to test drive. From my first few initial searches it looks like it's not easy to find a 5-speed.

Not to turn this into a Saturn discussion but I noticed in the paper that I could buy a car with 33K for the same price as a Toyota or Subaru.... is it better to get a car that will last longer, or one with less miles??

Decisions, decisions!

Saturn doesn't have AWD though. But I do wonder if operating costs would be cheaper.

Holly

:> BTW, not to turn this into a full blown Toyota discussion, but I doubt :> your Camry should be bottoming out like you describe. Mine's an SE, with :> the stiffer suspension, and it's still on the original shocks at 218k mi :> (yeah, they're getting tired, but not shot yet) and it only bottoms on :> the same dips other cars do. You might ask about the springs and shocks :> from the SE package when making your list of costs. :> :> Again, best of luck deciding!

Better taste, less filling? I'd opt for "last longer," particularly since I've never heard anything to indicate Saturns are particularly long-lived (remember, despite all the initial hype about their being "self-controlled," Saturn's still under the GM umbrella, which says a lot to me, if nobody else.)

Personally, I'd stick with your Toy or a Subie... and if your Camry's a

4 cyl, I'd probably opt for fixing and keeping it before buying another car. OTOH, if it's a 6 cyl, like mine, then Hippo nailed it: it's a bit too expensive to run. Mine costs bwtween four and five times as much per mile as my Subie (mostly cuz of the high cost of having the dealer work on things I can't or won't do on it I'd readily do on a 4 cyl myself), so for every 1k I drive the Camry on Sundays and such, the Subie goes about 5k miles during the week!

Rick

??

Each to their own I guess. I've had very good luck with GMs...can't say the same for toyotas.

It's apparently pretty sophisticated suspension theory, at least in theory . . . :-), pioneered by Peugeot, which is said to know something about suspensions. i like the theory and hope that my (new to me) 2001 OBW has that design. Its ride is taut but smooth. But it could be smoother and hopefully will be, when I replace the OM Firestone Wilderness tires with either the Michelin HydroEdge or Goodyear Assurance, choices made with the help of this group.

Anyone know when the "soft springs, stiff shocks" was in effect at Subaru?