replace engine coolant

"VB.NET" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com...

Does your sewage facility (wastewater plant) permit dumping of coolant into their system? How are you going to flush your system? Just opening the petcock and removing the radiator cap won't drain it all into a pan underneath, so presumably you will be attaching a tee into the hose to backflush by attaching a garden hose and will be pushing lots of water through the engine while it is running and out the radiator cap opening. Where are you going to collect all that polluted water? If you just let it run down the street, you might find your neighbor suing you for the death of their dog that lapped it up (one teaspoon is enough to kill a dog) plus you could get cited for spewing the pollutant into the drain sewers (which empty into the river without going through the sewage plant).

You need to check if your muncipality's sewage treatment system can handle ethylene glycol. Some do, many don't. By the time it reaches their plant, the concentration and toxicity has been reduced to levels that they might be able to handle (but not obviously if everyone flushed on the same day); however, there are other toxic components in the flushed coolant, like lead. So you would need to run another garden hose back to your house to dump the polluted water back into the sewage system (and not a storm water system). You are not allowed to simply dump it on the ground or into the storm sewers as that will pollute ground water and poses a health hazard to everything.

If your sewage facility declares that thou shalt not flush coolant into their system, are you going to collect a barrelful of polluted water from the backflush to then haul away to dispose of properly? If you watch the shop do the flush, they are actually retrieving the coolant to recycle it; see Are you going to buy one of those coolant recycling machines? If you take it back (and loads of it from a backflush) to a service station for recycling, they may charge a fee. If you take it to your municipality's drop-off site, they probably charge a fee for disposal of hazardous materials. With the cost of the coolant, the fees for disposing of it, the hassle of transporting it for disposal, or having to check to see if you allowed to flush it down to your wastewater treatment facility (and because you are polluting rather than recycling by disposing that way), seems like having the shop do it is not much more expensive, it is safer, and it is far less hassle. If you were doing flushes in bulk then the cost difference might be significant, but for one flush every couple of years it doesn't seem worth doing it yourself. You need to know the laws that apply to your locality. For example and for me, see Note section 3(b). Section 3(c) lets me dump it in the municipal wastewater treatment system (i.e., sewer) but still requires you check with them separately. The state says it is okay but one city's wastewater plant says No while another says Yes. Realize that draining through the petcock (with the radiator cap removed) does NOT drain the coolant from the engine. The "rinsing" procedure described at neglects all the coolant that is sitting in your engine nor does it clean the system but just drains [a portion of] it and replaces [a portion of] the fluid. If all you want to do is "energize" your coolant once a year before winter comes then this "rinsing" procedure is okay, and using a pre-flush additive might help. I would've done my own flush except that trying to connect a garden hose to a tube protruding from the radiator cap opening (the water comes in through a backflush tee in a hose and exits out the radiator cap hole rather than down throught petcock) resulted in lots of leakage from the tube which just press fits into the hole (I don't have the tool that will seal into the hole that will keep a watertight fit under pressure). I didn't have a drain hole in my garage that went back into the sewer system, and running a couple of garden hoses connected together to go send it back to the kitchen sink or basement floor drain was too much of a hassle. You could use the petcock to get rid of most of the concentrated coolant but, I think, that only drains what is in the radiator and hoses and not what is in the engine block, so you will still need to backflush and that results in lots of polluted water to get rid of. For $40 (on a coupon deal), I'd rather let someone else get underneath, get dirty, and have to handle the flushed out polluted water. If I had a drain in my garage to the sewer system, maybe I'd do it myself.

If you still decide to go ahead with your own flush (or rinse), make sure to use distilled water to mix with the new coolant. Don't use tap water.

You can do it yourself, if you have the time and a place to work along with basic tools. It isn't necessary to flush the system unless the coolant is contaminated or very discolored, otherwise a drain and refill will suffice. On the 02 it's very important to follow the correct procedure when refilling the system to minimize and remove any trapped air in the system or it can overheat. You can find information on doing this by reading the forums at

and

Use the Factory coolant or G05 from PepBoys. In addition; adding the Subaru "coolant conditioner" is a recommended must to assure no coolant weeping issues. The conditioner is about -5 dollars and for my

I changed my '98 Forester's without problem although it was somewhat messy. But, after reading about head gasket problems due to trapped air, I'll be having the dealer do it on my '03, just to be on the safe side.

I personally think the hazards of waste ethylene glycol are way overstated. It is readily biodegradable and as long as you don't leave puddles for dogs to lick, should be no problem.

Frank

Unless maybe you are going to spill it in the quantities shown on the cover of

"Frank" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

Yeah, obviously you don't have any dogs or you lost them all because of your sloppy handling of toxic waste. Dogs will lap up the sweet tasting coolant or even eat dirt contaminated with it. Remember that dogs are not picky eaters. They'll eat turds, vomit, and other disgusting stuff. Toxicity is NOT the same for all animals. As I recall, ethylene glycol is not rated as toxic in its normal concentration. It is how it is metabolized in animals to to increase its toxicity to extremely high levels that determines the effects of its ingestion. For cats, ethylene glycol poisoning affects the nervous system and causes severe kidney failure with almost complete cessation of urine output. Cats are even more susceptible than dogs (1.5ml per kilogram for cats, 5ml per kilogram for dogs). For dogs, they show non-specific symptoms of kidney failure like loss of appetite, lethargy, and vomiting two to three days after ingestion and treatment is often futile after severe kidney failure has developed. Humans can tolerate more ingested cooland than other animals, like dogs. 100ml (~3-4 ounces) is lethal for humans, and obviously that is 67 times what kills cats and 20 times what kills dogs. I haven't checked how it affects birds, worms, or other animal or plant life but it seems to kill everything that consumes it. Leave out the drain pan with coolant and you'll find lots of dead bugs in it. It is an old trick of a feuding neighbor to poison their neighbor's pet using engine coolant.

When poured into the storm sewers or into the ground, there is little that will break it down by the time it reaches water that gets used for consumption. The effluence in wastewater sewers (i.e., public sewage system) will break it down by the time it reaches the treatment plant, but some plants don't want to handle it at all. You can argue all you want but when you get cited and fined for hazardous waste pollution then you are the one that looks like the idiot. Since it tastes sweet, also expect jail time or, at least, manslaughter charges when the neighborhood kid dies from drinking it.

Also, we aren't talking about fresh new coolant here. We are talking about

*used* coolant which contains lead and other heavy metals along with additives to reduce corrosion, cavitation, buffer the acidity, and raise the boiling point. Common additives are: nitrates (corrosion inhibitors, buffers), silicates (corrosion inhibitors, especially for aluminum radiators), carboxylates (buffers, corrosion inhibitors), and borates (buffers). POLYethylene glycol (PEG) is used to thicken shampoo and cosmetics. It can also be attached to other molecules via a process called pegylation. When pegylated to medicinal drugs, it can alter their distribution in the body, metabolism, and excretion. Pegylation can also mask certain drugs, such as interferon, from the immune system, preventing their rejection. However, again, this is obviously not the same formulation as used for *new* engine coolant, and *used* engine coolant has pollutants that fresh coolant doesn't have. Engine coolant is toxic.

The OP is not asking how to dispose of fresh new coolant, nor would the OP be disposing of just ethylene glycol. The OP would be disposing of USED

*coolant* and that is not just used ethylene glycol. Just because engine coolant's primary component is ethylene glycol doesn't mean it is the only component.

Go ahead and swallow a quarter cup of *used* engine coolant. If we don't see you post again, we'll know why.

There are responsible methods of disposing or recycling deicer and there are irresponsible methods of disposal. Just because it is allowed legally via permit doesn't mean it is appropriate. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right.

Plus, as you mentioned, we are talking about USED coolant, not fresh new coolant, plus even fresh new coolant is NOT just ethylene glycol (i.e., there are additives).

I'm tempted to flame you but you'd like that. Hate to think that people like you drive Subaru's ;) Frank BTW I'm an organic chemist and not particularly impressed with your response.

Frank - I have MS in theoretical physics but in my particular situation

- education degree(s) is irrelevant: we have a water well and septic in our house :)

Thankfully you don't work in a hospital or for a veterinary clinic. I could just see you while carrying your claimed credentials declaring that the victim should not be dying despite the poisoning. I, for one, am glad you work in a lab instead of treating humans or animals.

Me too - well and septic. Septic should readily take care of used antifreeze. I have a lot of experience with toxicology and regulatory affairs and hate to see the chemophobia that our friend here displays. There are far more household materials or fluids that go into our cars that are more toxic. Ethylene glycol or the older antifreeze, methanol, do not even fall under the toxic definition given by OSHA.

Yeah. I'm also a bulletphobe.

My county has a couple of household hazardous waste collection centers. Up to 20 gallons (or equivalent solid weight) of almost anything at a time. They even take asbestos. They come out in tyvek hazmat suits. I'm guessing it's only for show, since they're not wearing masks.

I once asked my city utility if the sewage system coule take antifreeze. I was told it wasn't allowed, but they can handle small amounts of almost anything. The real problem is if everyone does it.

Here was his response:

"It is readily biodegradable and as long as you don't leave puddles for dogs to lick, should be no problem."

Seems extremely reasonable to me. Makes me wonder why a bittering agent isn't added to coolant to make it unpleasant if there are puddles. I remember seeing a car leaving about a quart of coolant on the ground. Bittering agents are used in pressurized air cannisters to try to prevent intentional inhalation.

It looks like a bill to do just that is still floating around the senate:

It seems like a no-brainer as long as a compatible agent is used, and that shouldn't be to hard to come up with. BTW - something that was only recently discovered and not widely known is that grapes and raisins are toxic to dogs, at least to some breeds, causing kidney failure. I realize this is very off-topic but maybe it will save a pooch or two.... Mike

Since it only has to be done at 30k, and you are probably fine at 50k, why not let a shop do it instead of wondering about how toxic it is and how to dispose of it. How much can it cost? And you won't be driving around with used coolant wondering what to do with it. They can also flush the system and pressurize it to check it.

The bill you cited specifies denatonium benzoate. I have some methanol based windshield washer fluid that contains the stuff (trademarked Bitrex).

All the info I've seen on ethylene glycol indicates that the toxic effects are the same as alcohol poisoning. Data seems to indicate that it's less toxic than ethanol, which I consume (in moderation of course). However - there is lead and copper in used coolant, which can't be all that healthy.

Yeah, that's what i decided to do. Too bad i incited a rather lengthy and annoying argument about coolant toxicity.

Make sure that the person doing the coolant change is thoroughly familiar with the procedure for the WRX as there is some technique involved in bleeding air from the system. In addition be sure to add the OEM cooling system conditioner.