Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

On that particular 5.4 the filter was remotely mounted behind the front bumper and horizontal. I never had the problem when changing oil, but then I never changed oil when the vehicle was stone cold and the outside temperature was 10 degrees. Cold oil is more viscous, and therefore it takes longer build pressure. Also, when I change the oil, I doubt the oil pump has any problem losing prime. Not so sure about the situation when the oil leaks back through the anti-drain back valve overnight.

Maybe it was not the anti-drain back valve, but the Ford mechanic emphasized the need to use an FL-820S Filter on the engine instead of the older FL820 or any other filter that did not use a silicone anti-drain back valve. The only noticeable difference between a FL820 and FL820S filter is the anti-drain back valve material (the "s" uses a silicone anti-drain back valve instead of nitrile).

And finally, I never had the problem when using an FL820S oil filter (more than 120,000 miles after the time I had the noise). I certainly can't say for sure the oil filter was the casue of the concern, but it seems Ford when to a lot of trouble to update the FL820 filter to include a better anti-drain back valve. I can't imagine Ford spending an extra penny for something that was not beneficial.

Ed

I don't claim to know you. But ain't hard to figure you out.

First you say it doesn't have a valve.

Then you say some of them had a valve.

Then you say they don't have a valve.

Then you say you can't figure out how the valve would work.

What more do I need to know?

Where did you acquire that myth. Assuming you don't have some not approved oil with a high pour point in your engine the oil pressure should start to rise as soon as you start cranking the engine. And the colder it is the faster it will rise. When it is really cold out the oil pressure will often reach normal levels before the engine even is running. Oil is not compressible. So unless you have air in the system between the pump and pressure sending unit the pressure signal from pump to oil pressure sensor should be pretty much instantaneous. It sounds like you have a problem no matter what filter you use, but Ford has somehow convinced you you are magically protected if you use their filter.

You need to really start looking at something other than hobgoblins as an explanation for how things work. If Ford can spend an extra penny per filter to convince you to not look for the defect in their engine and instead make you believe you are magically protected then yes it is money well spent from their point of view.

Here is my experience with the Chrysler slant six engine: In the early

70's I worked at a place where we had 3 dodge vans with slant six engines. In the 3 years I worked there never had a problem with any of these engines except one - when it got down to -25F they would often need to be jump started to get them going. I talked to a friend of mine who worked as a fleet mechanic. He had experience with lots of these engines (and yes they used Fram filters where he worked also). He said the trick to starting these engines when its really cold is to crank the engine until the oil light goes out. That usually takes about 2 seconds when it is really cold. When the oil light goes out stop cranking and sit and wait until the oil light comes back on. then wait a few more seconds and then repeat the procedure. At the second or 3rd attempt the engine should start. Well I tried it and by-golly it worked. Never had to jump one those engines again even when the thermometer went down to -32F. And these engines all had Fram filters

So excuse me if I don't believe the internet folklore about these engines failing to build oil pressure. I know from personal experience that never happened with a properly functioning engine. I don't care how many times somebody has had tear down an engine apart for oil related failures. That doesn't tell me that a bogeyman caused the problem that made those engines fail. What it tells me is those were badly maintained malfunctioning engines. The slant six was one of the most bullet proof engines Detroit ever built. When they were properly and well maintained there would never be any good reason to dig any deeper into these engines than removing the valve covers.

-jim

That he's absolutely correct?

I can't say that I've read every post in this thread, but I *can* say that the post to which you're responding is factual.

Most full flow spin-on type oil filters are in fact arranged so that the oil flows in around the perimeter and out the center hole. Therefore even if there is some kind of check valve in the standpipe, there really ought to be one on the inlet as well. This is obviously provided as a part of the filter. And has been pointed out to you several times before, it's well known that if you have a slant six that rod-knocks on startup and keeps the oil pressure light on for an unreasonably long time after a cold start, this is almost always rectified by replacing the Fram filter with a Wix filter. So *even if* whatever valve you say may or may not be included in the standpipe is actually present, and *even if* on every slant six I've had, that valve was defective for some reason, there *still* is an ADBV included in the aftermarket oil filters available for that engine - and the ones in Frams don't work, and the ones in Wix filters *do.* (note: I've never personally removed the standpipe on a slant six, and I haven't owned/driven/been near one for something like ten years now, so I can't say whether that part of your post is factual or not.) There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones, above and beyond the construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even a soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating surface.

Before you accuse me yet again of driving "defective" machinery, the two cars on which I've observed this personally both had engines in excellent mechanical condition; one was a reasonably fresh reman engine, and the other was a little old lady car with 80K original miles. Years later I had the head off the little old lady car (due to the owner of said car going too long between valve adjustments) and found the bores to still be in good shape, with little sludge/residue evident on the top side of the head.

Face it, you're BSing, and everyone's calling you on it. Just give up.

nate

About what?

Who said it wasn't. His interpretation of the facts are what has been questioned.

All of them are as far as I know.

Why because that supposition supports your fictitious and superstitious beliefs?

If no air can be drawn into the filter from the outlet side, then no air can get into the filter or any of the plumbing from the stand pipe to oil pick up in the sump. No air anywhere in the system from filter to sump means no oil pressure problem that you guys were having. The symptoms you describe are either due to air in the system where there isn't supposed to be air or a blockage in the system such as the anti-syphon valve in the engine sticking. That was a problem that Chrysler reported happened in some engines. There are at least a half dozen different ways that air could be getting in the system. For instance, there are a bunch of gaskets between the oil filter and sump that could leak and allow air into the system. And some of the others ways have already been discussed.

Bah humbug. And I suppose you believe in Santa Clause?

That statement is false.

(note:

That may be a fact but you have no evidence it is relevant to your claims. All these filters are ISO tested including the ADBV. Where is the evidence from those test that the material makes any difference? Someone who chooses to ignore the test evidence and instead rely on idiots who have only eyeballed the guts of a filter is superstitious IMO.

Even when it was -32F the rubber in the Fram filters did not fail. I know they don't fail on engines that are working as designed. I know others had the same experience as I had. That means I have believable evidence 1000's of these filters were known to never fail a single time. You want me to believe that your experience with a couple filters where you think they failed is going to be more convincing then my experience. It is just not very likely that you got all the bad filters and I others I know got only good ones. A person would have to be superstitious to believe that.

No you didn't. You had an oil pressure problem and a rod knock which you said persisted even with the WIX (only not as bad). You described the problem clearly enough. It is your interpretation of the cause that is lacking.

No body has called me on anything. You have superstitious beliefs about what you think is going on in places inside the engine you can't see. These engines when working properly do not have low oil pressure problem you say they are prone to. You even admitted the WIX filter didn't completely fix the problem but just improved the symptoms. I don't doubt that, but that isn't evidence of a bad filter it is evidence of a problem with the engine that was misdiagnosed.

-jim

Wix doesn't calim to use a silicone anti-drain back valve on all filters. The Wix advertising copy that shows a silicone anti-drain abck valve also includes a disclaimer that says "Some filters may or may not have these specific features due to OE requirements or other manufacturing processes. Refer to individual part numbers for specific details." Unfortunately the individual details available from the Wix website does nto include this information.

And Fram does offer filters with silicone anti-drain back valves, you just pay more to get them (the Tough Guard product line).

Ed

Not by me.

Go easy on the insults there, buddy, especially when it's your credibility that is razor thin.

de, then no air can

Or if the column of oil is high enough, air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump - what I suspect was actually happening. Assuming that there is even a valve in the engine.

I don't know who or what "Santa Clause" is unless you're referring to the Tim Allen movie.

Prove it.

So why don't they work?

It's common knowledge that nitrile gets hard in service much sooner than silicone. That may or may not show up in the testing procedure, but it sure shows up out in the real world. You know, where people actually drive their cars.

Someone who parrots "meets manufacturers specifications" without actually showing that a product does so and ignores real world results is a fuckwitted idiot.

Mine did.

You "know" this? How?

A person would have to be "superstitious" to believe that there is absolutely nothing to a whole mess of reports of failures just because he himself has never experienced one. I've never blown a rod out the side of a block, either, and I don't need to to know that that is one possible result of running without oil.

I most certainly did *not* say that.

Riiiiiiight.

I never said that they were prone to low oil pressure. I said that when used with inferior oil filters with faulty ADBVs that they would have a *no* oil pressure condition on a cold start. 100% factual statement, and true for *any* engine with an upside-down filter and no ADBV built into the filter mount.

Nope. It fixed the problem.

I fail to see how completely rectifying the problem implies misdiagnosis.

nate

Yeah and that proves what. Is it your position that if two or more people share the same belief it then becomes fact?

The column of oil high enough? you mean like if it was 50 feet high? There is no way air can get in from the pick up side of the oil pump unless the oil in the pan is extremely low. Your "air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump" is just another work of fiction.

I don't have to. The Society of Automotive Engineers and the International Organization for Standardization has overseen the testing that supports my position. There are both SAE and ISO standards for these things and numerous tests to verify that standards are being met. There is probably more testing done on oil filters than on the food you eat. If you think there are flaws in those test procedures you prove it. I have experience working for a small company that makes the housings that oil filters are fastened to. From what they have told me I know that after market oil filters are tested to death. There is no evidence at all from all the extensive testing to support your claims.

Yeah like no engineer ever thought of what would happen in the real world? Do you think you are the first to think of that. You think no testing has ever been done using real world conditions?

That is the evidence that exists. You either rely on that evidence or like you you rely on speculation.

I know for a fact that when cold a properly working slant six will not start up without oil pressure. It is designed not to do that, and in my experience with latterly hundreds of cold starts I am convinced that the design is extremely reliable.

And I have observed that when people are trying to promote myths they often resort to horror stories about poorly understood events.

You said you changed the oil and the low oil pressure problem at start up went away. If the engine was working properly those symptoms never would have been there in the first place (the engine itself is designed to prevent that without any help from the filter). And then you said even after your so-called "fixing" the problem the engine still had a slight knock on start up. Typically on these engines when working properly the oil pressure light would go off before the engine began firing and would never exhibit symptoms of low oil pressure at startup no matter what filter was on it.

-jim

t side, then no air can

You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you. Go ahead and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent "mechanics" out there.

nate

I suppose you believe in order for me to become not an idiot I would need to have an engine with low oil pressure and spread folklore tales on the internet about how my engine got to be like that? I guess in your mind, everyone who is not having that experience is obviously demonstrating idiocy.

It's not hard to see why you would be concerned about finding a good mechanic. With your superstitions it would be just as hard for you to determine if a mechanic was competent to fix your problems as it would for you to figure out what is wrong yourself.

-jim

superstitious

sludge/residue

misdiagnosed.

You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you. Go ahead and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent "mechanics" out there.

nate

***************************************************

That same one who continually occupies your mirror?

Every vehicle manufacturer DOESNT say that, and an expert mechanic would have no expertise to allow him to make that statement with any authority.

On my cars, the book says to change them at 5000 miles, but the dealerships have all told me to go 3500-4000. I wouldnt feel too bad about extending to

5000 miles if I had to, but oil changes are cheap, and I document every one of them with receipts, etc.

And I still dont consider it throwing money away. Using Mobil 1 and changing every 3500-5000 would be throwing money away.

Depends on your goals. If you want the minimum upkeep, and you run the vehicles a relatively short time, and then just want to auction them off, you are probably right.

If you want to maintain your warranty and run the car for 8-10 years and

100K or more, then you do what the manufacturer says, or better.

At least, that seems logical to me.

Oil is damn cheap compared to an engine.

The damage done at startup is not due to lack of lubrication. I researched this and posted the links to the reports some time ago. This "fact" is often quoted but just isnt what it seems to be.

We keep them a long time. There simply is no meaningful benefit to changing the oil more often the 6/6000 except in VERY unusual situations. There is NO ONE who in the past 20 years has documented any benefit to what you are doing and I'd be shocked if you could find a professionally managed fleet that uses 3/3000 intervals.

And for the most part they all say around 6/6000. Some claim you need it more often for taxi service but Consumer reports proved that is not needed.

You can spend your own money any way you want but there is no factual basis for your claim that such frequent oil changes are any benefit. You are still living in the world of 1960 oil.

USPS does for many of their vehicles. Of course, they beat the crap out of them. There are other exceptions, I am sure, of what you say above.

But, for the most part, you are correct.

I hate to be picky, but what Consumer Reports says about taxis is not relevant to most people.

For some vehicles, besides postal vehicles, need more frequent changes. But for the vast majority of the cars people in Europe and North American drive, 6/6000 is enough.

Jeff

I can't find the old post. Can you repost the links?

Ed

You really don't understand viscosity, pressue and flow do you.

Ed

My 1997 Lumina owners manual has 2 schedules for oil change. Short Trip/City - 3000 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first. Long Trip/Highway - 7500 miles or 12 months, whichever comes first. What that means is beyond me. Let's say I change the oil, drive 1500 highway miles to my vacation city, drive 500 miles in that city, come home 1500 miles on the highway, and then do the typical city commuting again. When do I change the oil? Stupid to try to make sense of that. Easier to just change the oil every 3000, or 5000, or 7500. Pick your own number. That CR test on taxis was full of flaws, the obvious one being that taxis often run all day without being shut down. Anyway, nobody knows the real difference of changing at 3000 versus

5000. NOBODY. So do what makes you feel good.

--Vic