Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

Evidently, camber ain't that important. Lots of folks run with camber that's a little off. It's a heck of a lot of fun!

Smartphones contain 3-axis accelerometer chips and magnetic compass chips, but AFAIK (unlike digital levels) they don't contain an inclinometer chip, so the accuracy from a phone is not likely to be high, the "bubble level" apps you can get for phones are a bit of a joke, they'll probably be influenced by large chunks of metal nearby.

The spec of the MEMS inclinometers in digital levels seems to be +/-6 minutes when measuring horizontal or vertical and +/-12 minutes for other angles, so even they would be marginal.

You might find these links useful

Note, if you alter camber, toe will alter and you will need to check and adjust if required.

HTH

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.

Hey, just noticed your link,

has the sears level shown here, The Sears level does have a laser in it. That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a simple trig problem. The hard part, finding the centerline of your car. I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches. Mikek

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

+1 and gaining BMW=$$$

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

+5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time.

Drive it to the BMW shop and tell them you want it set to the preferred settings. Make certain all your bushings and arms and their esoterically named crap is brand new because as it wears it will change. Don't hit any curbs, potholes, driveways, obstructions of any sort, or drive it period. Better get new springs too as they will sag and take everything out of the trunk. If it's a convertible weld some stiffeners along the top. Have your partner and you control their weight. Fill up with gas first. Get all pebbles, stones and other safarcus out of the treads. Make certain the tire pressure is within a 10/th of a pound. I am sure I am forgetting something...

I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a troll. There is some very simple math involved here.

could be both.

and some common sense.

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

Letz see up to +127 ?

nospam posted for all of us...

Yeah, some single mother needs this to stimulate the economy.

John Harmon posted for all of us...

The BMW sounds like a great value... Have you considered having it bronzed?

Many of these are known problems. Things like the cooling system you need to plan to replace, and not just the expansion tank but also the thermostat body. You may want to consider one of the aftermarket water pumps that do not fail also, when it comes time to do your next water pump replacement.

If you haven't replaced your air plenum, you're probably about time for doing that to do. Do it before it fails.

These are _maintenance_ items that you know are going to fail, not _repair_ items that you fix when they break. You know it's going to happen, deal with it before it fails.

There's an aftermarket retrofit for this also.

There'a sheet on that one. you're supposed to clean it when you change your oil. And yes, you're supposed to change your oil often. Follow the extreme service schedule in the book or get the "old school maintenance" schedule from the BMWCCA.

Again, a lot of these are maintenance items, others (like the wood trim) I haven't heard of.

You should be on your third set of windshield molding by now if you are replacing it according to normal schedule and keeping the car outside.

The power steering leaks again are what you get if you don't purge the system annually like the manual says and don't change the hoses when they start to fail. By now you should have replaced every rubber part under the hood at least once. If you haven't replaced the pads in the shock towers and the differential mount, do them now.

Most of these things that went wrong are things that a mechanic familiar with the vehicle should have expected to go wrong and should have taken care of before they went wrong.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff to do every 3,000 miles including checking the rubber parts. Yes, there's a transmission fluid change and differential fluid change every 30,000 miles. Yes, you need to change your brake fluid every two years and your coolant every fall. There is a _lot_ of maintenance on these cars.

Do maintenance and you will not have to do so many repairs.

--scott

The problem I have is confusion about where the triangles are for toe, and it has absolutely nothing to do with high school math since the trig involved is easy (soh, cah, toa) if we only knew where the triangles are.

For example, total toe is specified in *degrees* of all things.

Yet, total toe is simply the toe measured at the back of the wheel/tire combination minus the toe measured at the front of the wheel/tire combination, both of which are *linear* measurements.

Since toe angles are the same no matter what size the wheel/tire combination, how can total toe be specified in degrees when it's measured in inches?

Since the tire has the same angle the entire time, there is absolutely no difference in angle between a toe measured at the front of a wheel/tire and a toe measured at the back of that wheel/tire!

So, sure, I'm confused because total toe is specified in degrees. But the confusion has nothing to do with high school trig.

Summarized, if total toe is the difference between toe at the rear of the tire and toe at the front of the tire, yet, the angle of the wheel/tire combination to the centerline of the vehicle is the *same* no matter how large a wheel/tire combination is, then how the heck can total toe be specified in degrees?

Hi Bill,

If you can answer this question then it will show that you actually understand what you call *simple math*.

Here is the question:

Summarized, that says: If total toe is the difference in toe between the rear and front of the tire, and if the difference in angles between the rear and the front of the tire are exactly the same (by definition, since the angle of the wheel/tire combination to the centerline of the car is the same no matter what size the wheel/tire combination is!), then how the heck can total toe be specified in degrees?

That is a nice total-toe-in-inches to degrees calculator, which takes into account wheel size, but I'm still a bit confused how total toe can *ever* be an angle, when the angle at the front of the wheel is exactly the same as the angle at the rear of the wheel?

It's not the math (the math is easy); it's the concept of total toe having anything whatsoever to do with degrees when it's merely the difference in toe between the front and rear of the tire when the angle at the front and the rear is (by virtue of straight lines) exactly the same!

In this case of converting toe angle to inches, it's much easier to visualize why single-wheel toe is specified in degrees.

Here's a diagram I made which shows that concept, which I agree is very simple trig (soh cah toa):

Thanks. It seems that the order is "caster, camber, and then toe", in so much as the two vehicles I have (toyota, bmw) both specify that you adjust in that order.

Caster affects camber which affects toe so that's why you do it in that direction.

Intererstingly, from the standpoing of tire wear in normal settings, the same curve applies which is that caster affects tire wear less than does camber which affects tire wear less than does toe.

So the order to think of the 3D axis are caster, camber, and toe (in that order) for the x, y, and z axis.

Let's think about what you just suggested.

While what you said sounds easy, which is that if you can measure camber in degrees, why can't you measure toe in degrees, your truism ignores the simple unalterable but very basic fact that the tool uses *gravity* to measure angles.

That is, gravity-based tools work fine for measuring camber.

But how are you going to shift gravity by 90 degrees in order to measure toe the same way?

I replied to your original question days ago, and you ignored that reply. Regardless of that, your questions have been answered repeatedly. Toe *is* an angle, but if you know the outside diameter of the tire, it can also be spec'd in inches, or any other linear measure. The conversion involves only the measure of sides of a triangle, which is really basic math. This is my original reply:

Inches depends on the outside diameter of the tire:

Minutes to degrees can be found here: Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause any meaningful tire wear. Toe is much more critical, including for overall feel at higher speeds, but you are also dealing with runout, and there really isn't any good way to adjust for that at home.

The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation. Toe is much more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's exactly right.

You also have to keep in mind that a rear drive car's toe out will increase with speed, and a front drive car will do the opposite. There is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying to save money is not such a good idea.

At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there.

If all you care about is getting things close enough that there won't be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear purposes, pay someone.

That is not at all what total toe means. 0 degrees of toe for a wheel is when the tire is exactly parallel to the centerline of the car (that is a simplification, but it's usable here). Toe is a measure of the variance in degrees from straight ahead. Total toe is merely they sum of the toe in degrees of both the left and right sides. So if the left is +2 degrees, and the right is -2 degrees, the total toe is 0 degrees. That means minimum tire wear (theoretically), but the steering wheel will be a bit off-center.

The difference between the front and back of the tires is used only for distance measure, not angles.

Hi Scott,

I'm extremely familiar with the BMW, but only you and I seem to know what we're talking about here.

Unlike Tekkie, nospam, & Jeorg Lorens (who can only troll), I'm intimately familiar that the cooling system overhaul is a standard maintenance item on the E39, E38, and E46 (all of which use essentially the same Meyle and Nissan components) and I am also intimately familiar with the metal-vaned (petersburgh) water pumps.

The gasket-less MAP thermostat isn't all that bad, but since the water pump has to be removed anyway, we replace them as a matter of course during the overhauls (I've done about four overhauls of my entire cooling system myself).

We all have the special counterholding tools for the fan clutch removal and we often replace the mechanical or hydraulic tensioners (it's arbitrary which any one bimmer has) and serpentine belt at the same time since all that stuff has to come off anyway.

We have it down to a science. In fact, most of us have replaced the expansion tank cap (I think the ORM is 1.2 bar but I'd have to look that up) with a lower pressure cap, which doesn't prevent anything from happening *other* than when it blows, it blows out the cap at a lower pressure so the expansion tank seams don't split.

We also all know to keep the coolant level LOW (at or below the max at all times) since too many people overfill the expansion tank. Admittedly, when it's full, it *looks* empty but that is the way it was designed.

I appreciate the advice, but offhand I'm not sure what you're calling the "air plenum", but if you're talking about that idiotically designed DISA valve which moderates the intake manifold harmonics, I'm completely familiar with the DISA valve engineering flaws and have long ago replaced the innards with re-engineered ones from Gary at German Engineering (replace the plastic pin with titanium).

Again, you and I are probably the only people on this thread who understand what we're talking about so I'm extremely familiar which what breaks on the typical E39, E38, and E46 (which are all essentially the same depending on the years designed).

There are *tons* of aftermarket FSUs, but I'm not aware of any design change to any other component than the FSU itself.

This one I'm also intimately familiar with, simply because, if you know the bimmer, you know one of the most difficult standard jobs is to overhaul the CCV because it's in the middle of the engine so to speak.

What we have all done is we have modified our oil dipstick tubes, because the CCV dumps cold oil into the dipstick tube, which hardens with contact with water vapor into the extremely badly designed teeny tiny concentric-circle space in the two-tubed dipstick.

Also we've all changed the CCV components into the modified cold-weather ones (insulated) but they're a bear to put in because they're fatter and there's precious little room in the first place.

Suffice to say that you and I are the only two people here who actually know what we're talking about (Tekkie, nospam, Jeorg, and a bunch of the other fools don't have a clue what we're talking about when they bash BMW).

It's nice to know that there are some intelligent people here. Thanks for being intelligent!

I left off a few things because that was an ad-hoc list, but just like the fact that *all* the cluster and MID pixels go bad, all the wood trim cracks.

It's not actually the wood that cracks; it's the super thick coating of varnish on the outside that cracks. It's a warranty repair and I had all my wood trim replaced under warranty, but the replacement wood trim cracked just the same.

It's a manufacturing and design flaw that they all have.

The good news about the windshield molding is that it doesn't affect anything other than looks and noise. It's not a weather item so it doesn't keep out water.

The bad news is that the Germans use too much recycled rubber, which is the problem with that windshield molding.

Again, I'm impressed that you're the only one on this newgroup who knows what he is talking about with respect to bimmers. You'll find I know my model extremely well (probably better than almost any non mechanic you have ever met).

That's because I "think" about what I'm doing. And I collaborate with others to learn from them.

Which is the reason, after all, for this thread.

I have done an overhaul of the rubber from buna to viton long ago, and the worst were the SAP/SAS valves in the back of the intake manifold. They're impossible to get to under the best of circumstances.

The power steering isn't so bad if you clean the power steering reservoir filter once every few oil changes with gasoline (most people don't know that it's even there) and if you replace the oetiker (sp?) clamps with standard hose clamps and replace the hoses.

The V8 has special problems with the power steering pump bracket breaking, so a standard maintenance item is to check the bolts every oil change.

The I6 isn't bleedable so you have to suck the fluid out the reservoir with a turkey baster, but it's not all that bad to do. It's just ATF Dexron IV (now Dexton VI since Dexron IV lost its copyright long ago).

I learned of all the issues by running into them and then learning how to re-engineer them. My point is that most of these known problems span models, so, BMW *knows* that they build crappy components but they don't fix them. So that's just bad engineering on BMW's part.

All BMW cares about is the handling and performance, and, those components are engineered fantastically well.

I disagree with *some* of what you just wrote.

Most bimmer owners have learned NOT to change the "lifetime" transmission fluid for two key reasons. The first is that many people have had failures just *after* changing the fluid where the hypothesis is that "stuff" got mixed up and moved about (like crud). The second is that it's actually not trivial to change the transmission fluid because of the specific temperature requirements (which most people skip).

Just like most people skip the 500 pounds of weight to set the ride height to "normal" when aligning the car, most people skip steps when changing the transmission fluid - and problems arise as a result.

But I do agree that BMW used crappy BUNA rubber for things that get hot, such as the valve cover gasket (which fails on almost every engine!). BMW has since replaced BUNA with Viton but they didnt' tell their customers that so for years customers were replacing the buna VCG with another crappy buna VCG.

BTW, are you the "Magnum" "Scott" of BMW fame? If so, we actually know each other and we have common friends who have both beemers and bimmers.

Either way, it's a *pleasure* to speak with someone who is not only intelligent, but who knows what he's talking about (which most of the fools in this thread don't).