crappy brake shoes

this is what happens when you use cheapo brake shoes - you abrade the inside of the drum, create a lip, and end up having to cut the drum off
because the lip will no longer fit past the self-adjusting shoes...
this from a honda civic. use of oem honda shoes sees drums lipless after 300k+ miles. this drum has <80k miles.
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On 03/11/2013 09:37 PM, jim beam wrote:

That sucks, but why cut the drum instead of backing off the shoe adjustment? SOP in the rust belt where that lip is going to form anyway, if not by abrasion of the friction surface then by rust on the unswept area.
nate
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Exactly. It's common to simply deploy a spoon to back-off the star wheel while holding the contacting self adjuster plate out of the way with a screwdriver. A similar issue can result with the lip that develops on a rotor and caliper pad situation, but neither is any type of problem for an experienced mechanic.
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On 03/12/2013 07:04 AM, . wrote:

then you're not an "experienced" mechanic because if you were, you'd know that the civic's star wheel is not accessible unless the drum is already removed. the only concession you get from honda on this is backing off the parking brake*, and using /their/ brake shoes which don't abrade the drum.
go to a junk yard. every civic you'll see with drums removed is missing the retainer pins because they're the first thing that gets broken if you try to pull the drum off with brute force and it's what people need to replace the most frequently.
* which in this case is insufficient.
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I'm a very experienced mechanic, just not encumbered by such low self esteem that I'm only familiar with wasting my time solely on cheap vehicles that don't provide adjustment slots in backing plates and require proprietary brake shoes.
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On 03/12/2013 11:54 AM, . wrote:

Wait, what? That's complete garbage. I thought Japanese cars were supposed to be well-engineered?
The only drum brakes I've ever touched that didn't have an adjustment slot in the backing plate were VW rear drums, which used a drop-wedge type adjuster and could be released by putting a screwdriver through one of the lug bolt holes. Never have I worked on a vehicle that didn't have a provision for releasing the rear shoe adjustment for drum removal (although a few have required RTFM as the methods used are sometimes non-intuitive; see VW above.)
This has to cause issues in states that have an annual safety inspection... I'd be tempted to drill a strategically placed hole in the backing plate if there is in fact nowhere to release the adjuster.
nate
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On 03/12/2013 01:44 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

Correction - I forgot about the old Studebaker non-self-energizing drums used on trucks (why?) cars w/ disc front brakes (so as not to require a prop valve) and very old (pre-1955, I think) passenger cars which used an eccentric on each shoe to adjust. But they were still able to be released externally with only a couple hand tools for drum removal when a lip was present.
nate
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I did a Chev Corsica once where the owner had let the shoes go down to the steel. Way, WAY down to the steel. So far down that the shoes' backings had ground themselves into the drums such that drum removal was impossible.
Was I able to find ANY way into those drums so I could back off the shoes? No. No slot in the rear of the drums, nothing I could see at the front; nothing. No manual, of course, just the car. I ended up grinding off the hold-down-pin heads so I could lever the drum away from the backing plate enough to be able to turn the star-wheel and unhook the drum from the shoes. The rest of the job went smoothly.
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Nate Nagel wrote:

Add the sliding adjusters used on the early vegas. Those had two tabs that slid to adjust. In theory they could be released but in reality they were usually so full of rust that they wouldn't push in.
I don't know of any modern drum design that doesn't either have the adjuster slot open OR as a knock out provision in the plate.
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Then what'd I miss on the Corsica mentioned in my other post?
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On 03/12/2013 06:57 PM, Tegger wrote:

Were I in a more snide mood, I would point out that a Corsica wasn't "modern" even when it was new...
nate
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Tegger wrote:

A lot of the ones that have the knockout area on the backer plate become impossible to find after a bit of rust. Many are barely visible when new. They used to stamp them deep like an electrical panel but most of the newer ones barely have a ridge around the hole.
The Corsicas is about 3/4" from the edge, center of the plate at the bottom. After you drive it into the hole you use one of the rubber plugs in the hole to keep dust/dirt out.
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Oh, so it's like an electrical box, where you need to knock out the metal to make the hole. Never thought of that. That means those must have been the original shoes I changed.
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wrote:

Doesn't matter. On my Corsicas the holes were useless. Could barely get a tool on the star wheel anyway, because the axle interferes And the star wheels were always basically immovable due to rust. You need to hammer the tool to move them at all. No room to swing. But I always got the drums off past the rust ridge with enough wiggling . Does take some patience. If the drums were burrowed by the shoes doubt that would work and they'd have to be cut off.
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Vic Smith wrote:

In the rust belt the easy trick on the adjusters is to just lever them out of position since you will be replacing them due to the rot anyway. Sounds like you need a few other spoons as well. I've lost count on the number I have in the box.
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wrote:

I'm an amateur, so have only accumulated a few brake tools. A couple spring pliers, a couple spoons and a retainer tool. We do drum brakes infrequently enough that most the time we end up not even hunting them up, and just go with pliers and screwdrivers. Seems the Corsica star wheels are smaller than any other I've encountered and have finer teeth. Might be wrong about that. Just a little rust in the cylinder makes them really hard to turn. A wire brush and anti-sieze fixes that. No idea how long that will last, but at least they self adjust when we're done. We've had 3 of them, replaced shoes and drums on all, but none went more than about 40k miles afterwards, so we never went to the drums a second time. They're basically disposable short-commute, grocery getter cars, but both my son and wife got +10 years of daily driving out of theirs. A daughter's 3.1 lasted about 3 years because she trashed it. The wife's 2.2 was almost trouble free, but my son's 3.1 suffered the usual 3.1 problems. No LIM issues though.
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Luckily, on this one the adjusters spun free. I was able to easily back off the shoes once I could get a screwdriver in there.

This one was NOT a rust ridge. On this one the curved shoe backing had worn into the drum almost 1/8". Nice, hard, square edge where the backing had ground into the drum. Owner reported that the brakes had "just started" grinding. Yeahhhh, riiiight...
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Tegger wrote:

I had an S Series in last year that came in because the owner said it was pulling a bit. Quiet while driving and just a VERY tiny groan when on the brakes, but it pulled to the left. Pulled it apart and didn't believe my eyes. The inner pad lining was GONE, and the inner rotor surface was gone down to the cooling fins! Caliper was stuck solid and the outer pad looked good yet.
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Like this? <
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/rustybrakes/aerostar_new-old_rotors.jpg

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Tegger wrote:

Yep. Looked a lot like that. Could not believe that it didn't make a lot of noise.
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