crappy brake shoes

"Steve W." wrote in news:kho7vm$pb2$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

Then what'd I miss on the Corsica mentioned in my other post?

Reply to
Tegger
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Were I in a more snide mood, I would point out that a Corsica wasn't "modern" even when it was new...

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

rust is friable. cast iron is not. any "build-up" can be easily knocked off. if it hasn't fallen off of its own accord. this is cast iron - see previous info about being full of graphite flakes.

why would you have a drum turned if it's already out of spec??? [rhetorical]

depends what "modern" lining you're talking about. good asbestos linings were very good. but good modern linings, particularly the ceramics, are much superior. some of the modern organics [kevlar] are not bad either [although they're sometimes less so good when really hot

- but asbestos had that problem too]. cheap chinese crap, crumbly, full of sand and highly fade prone, is a positive liability.

keyword: "was". as was hammering pistons into blocks back in the day. because of cheap materials and poor precision. none of what you say is relevant or necessary with the precision and materials available today. unless of course, the manufacturer is deliberately cheaping out.

some of the 50's drum designs are absolutely miserable. add to that poor tolerances, cheap materials and inexpert assembly, and you have a real dogs breakfast. drums don't have to be bad though. for parking brakes, they're without equal.

Reply to
jim beam

A lot of the ones that have the knockout area on the backer plate become impossible to find after a bit of rust. Many are barely visible when new. They used to stamp them deep like an electrical panel but most of the newer ones barely have a ridge around the hole.

The Corsicas is about 3/4" from the edge, center of the plate at the bottom. After you drive it into the hole you use one of the rubber plugs in the hole to keep dust/dirt out.

Reply to
Steve W.

Which standards...? -----

- gpsman

Reply to
gpsman

in this case, yes. it's not the case with some of their more recent models, but on the vehicle in question, most definitely.

no. they're less abrasive, but that doesn't mean they're soft. abrasiveness != hardness.

hardness has nothing to do with being cheap, but desire to get you back buying more stuff certainly is. oem civic rear shoes last ~150k miles, and still have a little safety margin left. the cheap abrasive crap that wore the drums in that pic were down to the metal in ~80k

no. abrasiveness is no correlation with friction coefficient.

that's an "opinion" based on all the above misunderstandings with a good measure of "just wanting to disagree" thrown in.

Reply to
jim beam

"Steve W." wrote in news:khom9k$t3c$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

Oh, so it's like an electrical box, where you need to knock out the metal to make the hole. Never thought of that. That means those must have been the original shoes I changed.

Reply to
Tegger

Prove your assertion with iron and commonly used brake lining materials. Not some absurd example of two hardened steel plates or similar. This should be fun.

Always with the "new" information to bail yourself out. So what you don't know is, since they wore down to metal is if the lining material caused the drum wear or the metal to metal contact. Perhaps it was the same as or equal to the OEM material, but simply only half as much to start with (for lower cost). All these factors you do not consider.

Furthermore there are tradeoffs between wear and performance. Low life in miles does mean it was "cheap". It may have been. Maybe. possibly. even likely. But there are tradeoffs made between wear and performance and cost and other factors. You are looking at one factor and declaring what the others are.

Lol. No correlation was asserted. What was asserted is absolutely true, there are tradeoffs made between performance and part wear. However you're painting yourself into another problem for your beloved Honda.

If you don't want to look like a hypocrite, don't act like one. You post so arrogantly with so much brand bashing that when you encounter your favorite brand's cost cutting you spin it 180 degrees. It's amusing for any outside observer.

Reply to
Brent

i'm not going to "prove" anything to a retard - it's impossible. what i will do however is "illustrate" with some examples, which you will then misunderstand, thereby making the point above.

no, you always engage mouth before any chance of not being retarded.

whose shoes were they retard? yours or mine? you don't know their exact condition - i do. they were down to the metal on one edge of one shoe. the drum i showed you was from the side where they weren't down to metal. as it so happens.

you don't "consider" anything before opening your stoooopid mouth. the shoes were pep boys "max stop" or whatever they call them. i know this because the box was still in the spare wheel well. i went to pep boys to look at a new set. they have exactly the same original thickness as oem - but the material is crumbly and abrasive.

like there's trade-off between opening your big mouth too soon just because you want to vent about your pathetic existence by unloading on me?

no, there's no trade-off. friction linings don't /have/ to contain abrasives. they frequently do because it keeps people having to buy new braking components, but it's not necessary to provide function.

simple accessible non-tech example: bmw oem pad materials have a high silica content. it abrades disk metal at a rate where the disk is worn to below spec by the time the pad is worn. but if you replace bmw pads with akebono low abrasive ceramics, you stil get great performance, and can keep the same disk for two, even three sets of pads. and you don't get the wheel dust.

re-read what i wrote before - the "cheap" shoes lasted ~80k and cost ~$20 excluding new drum. the oem last 150k+ and cost $40 with no new drum required. do i need to dumb the math down any further?

you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

no, i'm pointing out the facts. something you apparently can't understand.

i can't "assert" anything to a retard with no analytical abilities!

um, apparently you missed it, but i am actually frustrated that this design requires destructive disassembly. when i say their assumption is that oem materials are always used, that's what i think is their rationale - i don't agree with it.

you're not an outside observer, you're the jerk neighbor kid that tries to kick in the spokes on the other kids bike wheels because they won't play with him, then wonders why they call him a retard and won't play with him!

in other words, you're completely incapable of being able to associate your own behavior with the reaction you get - you're a prisoner of your own stooopidity.

Reply to
jim beam

Usual ignorance, arrogance, and backyard learnin' I've come to expect from you. Nothin' wrong with backyard learnin' just when it's combined with the other two factors it leads to well the kind of things you post. Not to mention your own special use of the words.

I am going to keep trimming until you've typed something valuable or amusing.

hahahaha! Always with the 'new' info eh? One edge? So you're talking a lengthwise, circumferential edge of the shoe. If it were a width wise edge there would be a sweep from the bare metal making it impossible to tell. Here's a hint: contact should be even across the width. If it wasn't, something is wrong, either a part was assembled wrong, was damaged, or both that resulted in destroying both the shoe and the drum. That is of course if you didn't make this up as you went along without thinking it through.

Making it up as you go along.... what kind of OCD freak investigates in that detail what someone else put on their car? I guess the kind that has to post to usenet.

Prove there are no tradeoffs in engineering brake systems. Support your blind backyard assertions. That you can have everything at the same time.

Seat of the pants backyardism. Prove it. But why bother when your own word choice gives away that the pad change moves a balance point. "still get great performance". This makes it quite clear some performance was given up for longer rotor life.

You missed the point. The woosh! must have nearly knocked you over.

I've seen your 'frustration' here before on other makes' cost cutting. This was not it.

Describes your behavior to a tee.

If you don't like me pointing out your errors and hypocrisies, perhaps you should consider that they may be a result of how you treat others, especially those with the formal education you lack and different brand preferences.

Reply to
Brent

Doesn't matter. On my Corsicas the holes were useless. Could barely get a tool on the star wheel anyway, because the axle interferes And the star wheels were always basically immovable due to rust. You need to hammer the tool to move them at all. No room to swing. But I always got the drums off past the rust ridge with enough wiggling . Does take some patience. If the drums were burrowed by the shoes doubt that would work and they'd have to be cut off.

Reply to
Vic Smith

Yep same idea, some are punched real nice and just hit them with a punch and they open up. Others can be more fun.

Either the originals or nobody bothered to knock out the hole the last time.

Reply to
Steve W.

In the rust belt the easy trick on the adjusters is to just lever them out of position since you will be replacing them due to the rot anyway. Sounds like you need a few other spoons as well. I've lost count on the number I have in the box.

Reply to
Steve W.

Vic Smith wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Luckily, on this one the adjusters spun free. I was able to easily back off the shoes once I could get a screwdriver in there.

This one was NOT a rust ridge. On this one the curved shoe backing had worn into the drum almost 1/8". Nice, hard, square edge where the backing had ground into the drum. Owner reported that the brakes had "just started" grinding. Yeahhhh, riiiight...

Reply to
Tegger

I had an S Series in last year that came in because the owner said it was pulling a bit. Quiet while driving and just a VERY tiny groan when on the brakes, but it pulled to the left. Pulled it apart and didn't believe my eyes. The inner pad lining was GONE, and the inner rotor surface was gone down to the cooling fins! Caliper was stuck solid and the outer pad looked good yet.

Reply to
Steve W.

Nope. *some* rust is friable, but if you try to pull a drum off that has a significant rust ridge, the brake linings are likely softer than the rust ridge.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

there's no "likely" about it. look at the pic. that's not a "rust" ridge, that's a "rustY" metal ridge.

and it's not "some rust is friable". this is gray cast iron. it's basically a "concrete" of graphite flakes with little bits of iron holding them together. the graphite ensures any rust particles are free to fall off because they essentially "undermine" it.

Reply to
jim beam

"Steve W." wrote in news:khresq$pgk$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

Like this?

Reply to
Tegger

few other

I'm an amateur, so have only accumulated a few brake tools. A couple spring pliers, a couple spoons and a retainer tool. We do drum brakes infrequently enough that most the time we end up not even hunting them up, and just go with pliers and screwdrivers. Seems the Corsica star wheels are smaller than any other I've encountered and have finer teeth. Might be wrong about that. Just a little rust in the cylinder makes them really hard to turn. A wire brush and anti-sieze fixes that. No idea how long that will last, but at least they self adjust when we're done. We've had 3 of them, replaced shoes and drums on all, but none went more than about

40k miles afterwards, so we never went to the drums a second time. They're basically disposable short-commute, grocery getter cars, but both my son and wife got +10 years of daily driving out of theirs. A daughter's 3.1 lasted about 3 years because she trashed it. The wife's 2.2 was almost trouble free, but my son's 3.1 suffered the usual 3.1 problems. No LIM issues though.
Reply to
Vic Smith

Yep. Looked a lot like that. Could not believe that it didn't make a lot of noise.

Reply to
Steve W.

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