Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:05:28 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

You bring up a good point which is the "discard limit", where I never delved into whether the number given is the number that you start with or the number that you expect to end with.
I always assumed it's the start limit (but it might not be).
For example, these rotors say 297mm maximum diameter.
Even if a drum passed all other tests... - If the drum measured 297.1mm in diameter, it would be discarded. - But what if the drums measured 296.9mm in diameter?

I'll have to dig that up separately as it's on a car I don't even own anymore so I have to dig up the spec for the rotor grooves.
But even if I have trouble finding it, may whole point is that it's almost impossible to find a MANUFACTURER's SPEC for groove thickness failure.
(I understand your point that it's assumed it's zero.)

That may very well be the case, so let's table this until I can dig up the spec I found on an older vehicle.

I'm not sure what you mean by "in service" rotors. Is that just an inspection of the rotors without a pad replacement?

Both may be true.

Good observation!

Another good observation.

Yet another good observation.

Thanks for that advice. I am honing in on the friction rating for OEM being FF, but that's not definitive yet.

That's interesting. Thanks for the advice. I never deglazed a rotor before. I do the standard multiple-60-to-10mph stop that everyone does to bed them.
Thanks for the advice! You pointed out things, as did Tekkie, that I hadn't thought of. Much appreciated.
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Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

Hey Madman, have you checked the hoses yet? Don't bother with pix.

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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 14:34:51 -0500, Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

Hi Tekkie, Thanks for your advice. Please see my detailed response to your other post.
As for hoses, I'm not trying to overhaul the vehicle - so I haven't checked anything.
In fact, I wasn't even looking for brake issues, because the owner didn't report any brake issues. I was simply rotating her tires for her, and since I had the wheels off, I popped the pins out of the rotor to look at the pads in front and I pulled the shoe off to look at the shoes in the rear.
So, my main goal is just to refresh the pads and shoes, but it's sound advice when I do the job on a weekend to check her hoses and cable for fraying.
So what I'll do, as per your helpful advice, is buy the pads and probably the rebuild kit, and then when I do the job, I'll inspect from the front to the rear all the cables and hoses.
I'll also order a liter of DOT4 fluid (even though it only specifies DOT3), and I'll borrow her kid and replenish her entire brake fluid until it is all new too.
Thanks for the advice.
Remember, none of us differ except that I seem to be caring more about friction for friction materials while others care more about it being the OEM spec - both of which aren't necessarily different.
However, if the OEM spec is E, I will likely refuse to put them on the vehicle as I have never put anything less than F on any vehicle.
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:00:19 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

o thios is not your own vehicle and you are doing brake work on it?
Ihope to hell you have good insurance!!!!!!!!

Call your insurance company and tell them what you are doing. It is ILLEGAL in most provinces and states - and financially VERY dangerous foran unqualified person to do safety related repairs on a third party's vehicle.

Then you are CRAZY as MOST vehicles come with ee, or at best EF brakes standard equipment.
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On 10/01/2018 8:01 AM, Mad Roger wrote:

Are you *qualified* to judge?


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On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:03:54 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

In all my years as a mechanic I always unhooked the e-brale linkage from the cable on that style, and removed the whole assembly from the backinplate as shown in your last picture - then reassebled with whatever new parts were required. Check the cyls closely to make sure nothing is sticking. Back off the handbrake cabke adjuster so it doies not screw up the service brake adjustment, and after everything is re-assembled and adjusted at the wheel end, look after the handbrake adjustment/adjuster. Mage REAL sure the cabkes azre not hanging up ANYWHERE or you will end up repkacing shoes again After 20 years it would not surprise me at all if you need cyls and cables, but it IS a Toyota and they are pretty high quality, dependable vehicles. (Iwas a Toyota service manager for 10years)

Adjuster looks good, but clean and lube

The cable MUST move easily and smoothly. Same with the cyl pistons. be carefull not to pop them out but they should both push in easily and you should be able to slide the pair of pistons easily back and forth in the bore.

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On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:16:46 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

When I googled, that's one of the methods I found people use, although most seem to replace them, one shoe at a time (because they remarked they'd try the full-removal method next time).
This guy did the full removal, but he completely skipped the removal steps: <

> Check the cyls closely to make sure

Thanks for that advice.

I wasn't thinking cylinders, but I'm fine with rebuilding them. I've rebuilt master cylinders in the past where it's easy to rebuild a cylinder with the right parts.
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On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 01:18:54 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you are paying to have it done)
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On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 4:56:59 PM UTC-10, Clare Snyder wrote:





Cylinder rebuild kits are getting scarce on this rock too. I used to get th e kits back in the old days but these days I buy new cylinders. Using new p arts when servicing drum brakes doesn't cost much. In my dotage, I don't li ke dicking around with old parts.
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On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:58 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".
Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.
Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.
I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.
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On 1/9/2018 2:44 PM, Mad Roger wrote:

You might want a second opinion on those parts prices: http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota
Then again, you might not.
Andrew Muzi
  Click to see the full signature.
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On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 1:20:59 PM UTC-10, AMuzi wrote:

It should cost less than a hundred bucks for shoes, cylinders, and hardware . New drums would cost maybe a little over a hundred more. You can save a l ot of dough by doing the job yourself. I enjoy taking my time while working on brakes - by myself. Less when somebody is "helping."
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On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:20:53 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

Wow. What a difference in prices from the Toyota dealer! It's not half, it's not a third, or a fifth - it's one tenth the price!
The only thing I need now is to know the OEM shoe friction ratings.
I'd be perfectly happy with just-as-good friction pads as OEM at those RockAuto prices of basically $12 per "something".
I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin time zone) to figure out two critical things:
1. How many shoes come for $12 (one?, two? four?) 2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?
It's shocking that Toyota didn't know the friction rating, and RockAuto doesn't know the friction rating based on their web page (admittedly good prices).
The friction rating is the *most* important thing about a brake shoe - nothing else even matters if they are a worse friction rating than what you want.
And yet, the RockAuto page lists shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe (Centric, Bosch, Wagner, ACDelco, RayBestos, PowerStop, Monroe, BeckArnley, Bendix, etc.) and not one of them specifies the most important thing about a brake shoe!
WTF? It's impossible to buy brake pads or shoes without knowing the friction rating. Who on earth can possibly compare two brake shoes without that critical information?
It's not like a brake shoe has any other major job but friction.
The higher the number the stronger the friction (SAE J866a): E = 0.25-0.35 F = 0.35-0.45 G = 0.45-0.55 H = 0.55-0.65 http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm
Given RockAuto and Toyota don't seem to tell people the pad's friction rating, I have to wonder ... do people really buy friction materials knowing nothing about their cold & hot friction coefficients?
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:31:18 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

You do NOT need to know the ratings. Buy their OEM quality shoes and the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede OEM spec - which is all you need or want.

They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen shoes sold individually.

You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.

That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know the rating.

If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.

They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric, Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe - and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself - but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.

Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track" thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better shoes.
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On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:04:15 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.
But let's face it. A brake shoe has one and only one primary job. And that's friction.
If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.
Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story (e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.
You can get *lucky*. But you are just guessing.

We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which, by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.
Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find (if the shoe is in your hands).

I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty bucks for a set of four.
The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.

Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.
In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction rating.

I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating, whatever that is.
So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.
If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the friction rating first and foremost.
It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.

That is true. If that is true that is true. It's not always true even if they say it's true. I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.

You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name, it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all sorts of shit just to get more money for the same thing.
Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g., paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).
Branding is bullshit for the most part.
What I care about are friction ratings.
After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).
The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.
After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.
Otherwise you're just guessing.

I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and they didn't even know it.
They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads didn't even meet OEM specs.
The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about the same price that were FF or even GG.
I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction. Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.
There's a *reason* for that. You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe. :)
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:34:20 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

No, your best friend whoworks at the auto parts store may be as clueless as you are. BUY OEM SPEC PARTS and you can't go wrong.

OEM SPEC parts WILL be equal to or excedingOEM specs.

With pads you worry about dust - not so with drums/shoes.

Soare you.

No, they will sell you what you are willing to pay for. If you want "economy" friction, they willsell you "economy" friction - which M<AY have the same friction characteristics, but only last 50,000 miles, or 30,000 instead of 175000.

Then ask to see the factory shoe at the dealer and read the rating.
The "monroe premium" shoes I have "on the shelf" for my ranger are EE on all 4 shoes. The "certified" semi-metallic pads I have "onthe shelf" for the ranger are EF
Since the rear brakes basically "go along for the ride" unless you are hauling a load, the friction rating isn't TERRIBLY critical anyway -

LikeI said - stupidly cheap - not worth rebuilding unless the cyls are not available.

Didn't say you shouldn't. Just LISTEN to what I'm saying. BUY OE#M SPEC and you GET OEM SPEC.
Listen to one of the most experienced wrenches on this newsgroup. I've wrenched, I've been service manager, and I've taught the trade at both secondary school and trade levels. Since 1969.

ANd if you buy OEM SPEC aftermarket p[arts, they will br too. What do you not understand about OEM SPEC????

No, you choose OEM SPEC from a TRUSTED MANUFACTURER - no matter who you buy from.

And who says the friction material is accurately marked???? You have no idea where the friction material came from, and if it meets the spec stamped on it. It is almost CERTAINLY sourced fromChina - and likely assembled on the shoe in China, regardless of the brand, and China will counterfeit anything, given the chance. This is where a "trusted manufacturer" comes in, as they do "quality control" and assure the product meets spec.
You could have FF stamped on a thich chunk of cardboard on an "xyz" brand part and it might not even meet the loweast spec.

They don't mean SQUAT if you can't trust the brand. See where I'm coming from???

ANd over half the "enthusiasts" don't know shit from shinola - they just listen to other "enthusiasts" or "armchair experts"

It's printed on the friction material by the manufacturer - can you trust the manufacturer????? If so, trust the manufacturer to provide OEM quality. If not, the ratings don't mean shit.

Like I said - BUY QUALITY and you are not guessing any more than you are doing it your way.

Correct - there was no difference undernormal driving conditions - they likely didn't wear the same, but they stopped the car at all legal speeds under normal load conditions

They bopught "economy" pads - and the whiz-bang enthusiast pads may have been no better than what they bought,

Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and you will KNOW the spec. Then order the OEM quality parts from Rock, and if they are sub-standard, send them back. No rocket science. - unless you've pissed off the dealership parts department and they won't do anything for you.
I had customers that I'd refuse to do anything for because they were cheapassed pricks who you could never satisfy, and/or they were know-it-all know-nothings that argued with everything you told them.
If you are that kind of person (and it's looking a bit that way because you don't listen to experience - you "know better" )- then good luck and it looks good on you.
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 00:28:05 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

There is no such thing as OEM quality without having the OEM specs to compare against. Otherwise it's just a gimmick.
There's no way for you to know if it's OEM quality if it's not to OEM specs. Just because they *say* it in a billion web sites, doesn't mean it is.
Specs are fact. Marketing words are bullshit.

EE sucks. Steel on steel has a coefficient of E. Seriously. Look it up.

Again, E is atrocious. Steel on stell is E. Look it up. F is good.
Unfortunatly, there is a HUGE RANGE between E and F and even within E and F themselves. Such is the spec.
But I'll tell you that I've never once in my life put a crappy E pad on any disc brake. E is absolutely horrifically terrible. It's no better than steel on steel.
F is just getting started.
I've never done drum brakes before though.

This may very well be true because I must have replaced the fronts a few times already on this vehicle so I don't disagree with you. I'm going to do the front pads also, so I am looking for what their friction ratings are.

The main problem with cylinders is that if I don't go OEM, I won't know the quality of the cylinders. So I may end up putting worse cylinders in, when their may be nothing wrong with the current ones.
Then again, maybe all cylinders are just fine in terms of quality. I don't know. That's the homework I need to do as I've never done drums before.

We don't disagree. We just don't agree on what you trust & what I trust.
To me, IMHO, there is no such thing as "OEM SPEC". It's marketing bullshit.
Maybe it's oem spec. Maybe it's not. Who is to say? You trust marketing more than I do.
I trust *real* specs. Like the friction coefficient. That's a real spec. Not marketing bullshit.
Why do you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM spec *is* the OEM spec?

I don't disagree with anything you've said, and, in fact, I agree with almost everything you've said. Our disagreements are only in how we interpret things like scoring and what you term "oem spec".
I completely comprehend what you're saying. The main difference is that I trust specs more than you seem to. And you seem to trust what I think is marketing bullshit more than I do.
It's not a disagreement in principle as if it truly was OEM spec then it's OEM spec. I get that - but I don't believe it just because they said it.
Have you seen oil filters taken apart? I have. They *all* meet OEM spec. But some are better than others. A lot better.
Why would you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM spec *is* the OEM spec?

There is nothing you could ever say to me that I don't comprehend. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Really.
It's not a matter of comprehension.
It's a matter of trust in marketing bullshit or not. You trust what I call marketing bullshit much more than I trust it.
That's the only difference that I can see where we disagree.
If I buy a food that says "all natural", what the fuck does that mean? If it says "more doctors recommend it", what the fuck does that mean?
Do you know that acetominophen (aka Tylenol) is freaking dangerous? The LD50 on Tylenol is so fucking close to the therapeutic dose that it's dangerous stuff compared to Aspirin.
Yet there is the J&J campaign to convince idiot consumers that "more doctors recommend tylenol" which is a bullshit marketing statistic.
Same here with the "meets OEM specs" bullshit. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
What matters is the OEM spec. Not the marketing bullshit.
We don't disagree. The only place we disagree is that you can't believe anyone would not believe in the marketing bullshit.
SO you say I don't "comprehend" but I do comprehend. It's trust. Not comprehension where we differ.
Why would you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM spec *is* the OEM spec?

Let's drop this as I AGREE with you that if it truly is "oem spec" then "Oem spec" is fine.
Did you know Apple said that their phones were X Ghz but they halved that in a year? Companies don't always tell the truth.
You seem to believe them. I don't.
That's the only difference. Why do you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM spec *is* the OEM spec?

They have to meet the standard and I "presume" it's enforced by law. Maybe it's not - but I presume that the friction rating is correct.

What's odd is you believe a marketing bullshit claim of "meets oem spec" without it saying what that spec is, and yet you question a government mandated friction test under specified circumstances.
I think that's odd in that it's reversed from normal logic. There's nothing wrong with your logic - as it has to do with trust.
You trust marketing more than you trust the government mandate. I'm the opposite on trust.
I trust the friction test, specifically the SAE J866A test procedure: https://netrider.net.au/threads/understanding-brake-pad-ratings.88551/
Here's a general description of the friction ratings CDEFGH http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1003-brake-pad-technology/

What's odd is that you don't trust a government mandated standard test, but at the same time, you trust a mere marketing term on a web site.
That's fine. You're allowed to trust marketing more than government mandated specs - but it's the opposite for me on trust.
We only differ in what we trust. http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm
I can't run my own tests like the police did here: https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf

The brand is meaningless. What matters is what's *inside* the oil filter. The brand is just the paint on the outside.
We differ greatly in whom we trust.
I trust in specs. You trust in brands.
Neither one of us is wrong - we just trust differently.

I agree with you that the 'boy racers' out there who think seafoam is a solution from God himself don't know much - but when it comes to "dusting", it's pretty reliable when everyone with the same make and model and year you have says that a certain Jurid pad will dust while the PBR pad won't dust (where PBR and Axxis are the same pad - it's only the marketing paint on the outside of the box that allows them to sell Axxis pads at a higher price than PBR).
Do you see what I'm getting at?
I personally called the marketing organization for Axxis who, interestingly, has a different channel than PBR (even though they're the *same* pads!), and they gave me the full scoop.
Marketing bullshit 101.
You are not wrong in trusting marketing far more than I do, and I am not wrong in trusting in actual measured specs more so that marketing words.

What's funny is that you don't trust a government mandated SAE test, which has clear conditions, while you do trust some blurb in thousands upon thousands of web sites to be correct.
I find that odd but there's nothing wrong with how you trust web site blurbs more than I trust them, nor that you trust government mandated SAE tests less than I trust them.
It's all how you and I handle trust.
You trust marketing far more than I do.
I *know* that a PBR pad is far less money than an Axxis pad and yet, they're exactly the same pad - only marketed differently.
Wanna know something funny? They both have the same markings on the side.
They *have* to have the same markings. It's the law.
The one place they can't lie, is in the markings.

You trust marketing more than I do.

We don't disagree other than you think E is quality and I know E is almost as bad as it gets. E is no better than steel on steel for friction.

E is no better than steel on steel. Look it up. I'm not joking.

Anyone who says "economy" or "performance" pads is falling prey to marketing bullshit.
There is no such thing as an "economy" pad.
There is a pad that has a certain spec and that's it. If you pay a lot for it or if you pay a little for it, the spec didn't change.
Remember, the "performance" Axxis pad is the *same* pad as the economy "PBR" pad.
It's all marketing bullshit. The numbers on the pad are *exactly* the same because they have to be. They're the same pad.

You don't know the Toyota dealer in my town. They're assholes. They're the worst. They'd KILL me if I told them I just wanted to *look* at their pads. I'm serious (well, not about killing me). But they'd tell me to go take a hike.
Only at a local auto parts store would they bother, but only if they don't have to open the package in a destructive way.
Anyway, I appreciate your advice but that doesn't mean I trust what you trust which are the words "meets oem" more than I trust actual facts (which are measured and tested friction ratings).
We each put trust in different things: a. You trust marketing more than specs b. I trust specs more than marketing
Neither of us is right or wrong - it's just we differ in whom we trust.
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:34:42 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

BULLSHIT. You are an idiot.

ANd your perception is also bullshit.

The brakes work perfectly, and they are OEM spec. The shoes from ford are the same.

Again, they are perfectly serviceable. I can makethe antilock brakes activate on dry pavement at any legal speed.

ANd steel on steel will stop you dead in your tracks - t5he problem with steel on steel is there is no "feel" - it is either all or nothing.

So you don't have a CLUE what you are spouting off about. You are just like your idiot buddy who figured he had to do his own tire service, balancing, and alignment because he knew better than everbody else - nobody else was going to doit right - and yet he had to ask stupid questions about everything on this newsgroup just so he could argue with everyone else.


You've never rebuilt wheel cyls before either - and you have no idea what quality the rubbers you will be able to scrounge are either, as the OEM market no longer supplies them - nor does the top tier aftermarket.
Yoiu are an IDIOT if you believe otherwize.

If the spec is fudged, it bullshuit. You don't KNOW the spec is real. You are an IDIOT.

I'm not denying you the right. Hire a materials inspection lab and have them certify whatever product you buy before installing it. Make shure the materials lab is certified and experienced in brake friction material,and that all instruments have been properly calibrated to a certified standard - otherwize you are just guessing and hoping. - you do not KNOW anything.

You are an argumentative know-it-all kid (whatever your age)

No, it's that you put more importance on knowi g the published spec, and lest trust in the automotive aftermarket.

You trust the "marketing bullshit" of a stamped on friction rating, not knowi g who stamped it on, and whether they are trustworthy or not.
I trust major quality aftermarket suppliers to provide the correct parts - and I have 50 years of experience backing me up. When I buy OEM spec parts, I have no problems. If Iinstall "economy" parts, they usually don't last as long and occaisionally do not perform as well.

And there are brands I trust, and brands I don't. Among those brands I don't particularly trust, their PREMIUM products are top notch. It's their "economy" product that is substandard. Case in point. Orange fram filters are sketchy - but their "synthetic" filter - their premium product - is perfectly adequate - as good as a standard WIX, Purolator, Mptorcraft, Mopar orAC Delco filter.

Like I said - GO FOR IT!!!. Hire a materials lab to confirm the spec.

You sure don't seem to be comprehending ANYTHING.

I trust major quality OEM manufacturers to provide what they say they are providing. Ihave 50 years experience buying and installing parts. (and troubleshooting the systems the parts are used in)

And asprin is al;so dangerous.
Car parts and pharmaceuticals are two different worlds.

You are not only an IDIOT but a PARANOID idiot. Lay off the weed!!


Particularly crooked companioes like APPLE who have ALWAYS sold the sizzle - not the steak.

I've NEVER believed Apple.

Nobodiy is denying you the RIGHT to do anything. Go buy a set of OEM shoes from Toyota - read the specs on the material., then go buy whatever the heck you want. Knowbody's stopping you.

You know what ASS U ME does - PREsume just does it faster.

Anything to dowith "government mandate" is open to abuse.

No, you trust that the spec printed on the material by some Chinese sweat-shop . Youhave NO PROOF the material meets the spec, or that the actual testing was done to the standard.

What I don't trust is an unknown manufacturer over a known supplier of quality parts. I don't even LOOK at the "marketingbullshit" that you seem to put a lot of weight on.

\ Government mandated specs are, to many, just a challenge to get around them - particularly in the Fractured States of America, where the president is a cheat and a liar and half the country wants to be just like him.

And thiose tests showed the EE pads CONSISTENTLY outperformed the FF brakes pretty well across the board - with the FF brakes SEVERELY underperforming in most cases.
The Dana Ceramic family was the only FF to outperform OEM, while HawkHead outperformed on both Chevy and Ford - and Raybestos and Carquest alsooutperformed on Ford in the panic stop test.
Across the board, EE brakes, on the whole, outperformed the ff, and even the ee/gg combination - so what does your frictionrating tell you????????????

What it tells ME is if I buy Raybestos, NAPA, CVarquest, or Dana (all major OEM suppliers) brakes, I will equal or excede OEM performance - doesn't make a bit of difference to me WHAT rating they have.
If I want slightly superior hot panic braking, at the expense of poorer cold and medium temperature braking I should buy ceramics - and this is STRICTLY for braking performance.
Now, from REAL WORLD experience, both myFord Aerostrs wentthrough rotors like crazy - untill I put on NAPA's Carbon Metallics a set of pads destroyed a set of rotors at about half of pad life - and I mean TOTALLY DESTROYED, here in Southern Ontario. That came out at just over a year.
When I went to NAPA Carbon Metallics, the same rotors lasted for TWO FULL SETS of pads - and over 5 years - and I was able to actually lock the front wheels on dry pavement (rear ABS only) - which NONE of the other brakes were capable of doing.
Never looked at the friction rating - never needed to, because friction rating doesn't tell the whole story (as your reference so elegantly proved)

Nope - The BRAND can tell you what to expect inside.

I beg to differ.

And there again you would be WRONG.
Seafoam is a VERY EFFECTIVE and HANDY TOOL for solving MANY fuel related (and some other) problems - and has been for decades.


Boy Racer brands - Boutique manufacturers - not handled by any major distributor -

Yup - Australian engineered, chinese manufactured mail-order/online marketing excercise.

Not if I don't know the manufacturer - and as your example of thecop car test so elequantly shows - the ratings, on the whole, don't mean SQUAT - and beyond that they do NOT tell the whole story.

Who said I trust websites??? You are the one giving aznd asking for web references and specs - not me.

I DON'T trust website blurbs - I trust EXPOERIENCE - and I have 50 years of it. - half of that actively involved with the profucts on a daily basis - long before the internet.

NOpe - all you trust is "marketing " - because that's all the friction ratings are. They are a "comparison tool" - and a poor one at that, as your tests proved.

And both are LIKELY crap

You think Chinese producers can't lie????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Ha Ha Ha!!!


Damned right there is.

Damned right it dioes.
You can have 5 different FF pads - and one will be noisy as hell, one will eat rotors for lunch, onde will corrode as soon as it SMELLS salt, and another will turn to gravel the first time you get it hot - ALL FF rated (or ef, or ee. or FE )
The fact it met the test requirements ONCE in the lab means NOTHING about quality

The PR is NOT an "economy" AXXISS pad, it is a pad sold at a lower markup by a different marketing company.
NAPA, WAGNER, Raybestos - ALL make more than one grade of pad - prermium and economy being the upper and lower end - often with a few in between.
You know squat.

Boy, do YOU have a lot to learn.

Well, I have a feeling I'd be telling you the same.

Good luck!!
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:47:38 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

I think progress was made today with the realization that FF is probably the Chase Test SAE J866a friction designation for the OEM shoes.

My focus on specifications may be bullshit, I agree, as it's a matter of trust in the specification for the SAE J866a Chaste Test results.
Your focus on a billion web sites all accurately portraying "meets OEM quality" is also subject to trust.
A web site may make all sorts of claims (say, for Axxis "performance" pads), while another web site sells the base pads (say, for PBR "economy" pads) where the numbers printed on the pads can tell me that they're the exact same pad because marketing can say almost anything they want as long as the pads fit.
Luckily, the numbers tell us if they're the same pads, or not: AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011 <http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf > The brakes work perfectly, and they are OEM spec. The shoes from ford

That's great but you saw the mention that EE brake pads are only marginally better than no brake pad at all. http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

You have a friction coefficient at a variety of temperatures of somewhere between 0.25u to 0.35u, which is a wide range.
I personally have chided *anyone* who uses EE pads, especially those who did it without knowing that they were EE pads, becaues I would use FF pads which have a measurably higher friction coefficient of somewhere between 0.35u to 0.45u, which itself is a huge range.

I agree with you, as always, since I've *seen* rotors worn to their ribs, and the cars were still being driven on the road.
All I'm saying, and all I ever said, was that I have never put EE pads or shoes on any vehicle and I hope that I never will.
FF is fine for me as long as that meets OEM specs.

We're talking about the SAE J688a Chase Test whose results are printed on *every* brake pad and shoe sold in the USA. This information has been around for many years. Here is the PDF from 2011 for example:

I'm sorry if my adult conversation with you has offended you. We don't disagree on the technology.
We simply disagree on the level of trust.
For example, you trust EE pads far more than I do (and that's fine). You also trust that every web site accurately portrays "meets OEM specs" far more than I do, and that's fine.
Apparently you don't trust the SAE J866a Chase Test results, which are printed on every brake pad and shoe - where I do.
We don't disagree in concept - we merely have different trust levels in different sets of data.

I agree with that that what really matters is real-world experience, where, you'll note, this report looks at EE and FF pads in Police Cruisers in depth: https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf

Actually, I do. If we trust in the SAE J8866 Chase Test results, we do know a *lot* about the friction at various temperatures. And, if we match the entire code, we know *who* actually manufactured the pads/shoes (e.g., we'd know that some are just rebranded versions of others).
So, it seems you may be under estimating the huge amount of knowledge there is in the direct result of SAE J866a tests printed on every brake pad and shoe sold in the USA today.
We can tell if two pads from two different brands are the same pad, and we can tell who actually makes every pad sold in the USA today.
It's all here, all 176 pages of it: <http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf > You are an argumentative know-it-all kid (whatever your age)
I'm far younger than you are and not as experienced as you are. I don't have any experience with drum brakes. Like many here, I have an engineering degree but it's not in this field.

Brands are a marketing gimmick. The 176 page document proves that.

I apologize that you feel I don't comprehend your statements. I think we have a difference in trust. You don't trust SAE J866a Chase Test results; I do. You trust marketing branding; I don't.
It's not a matter of comprehension - but a matter of levels of trust.

VW was making cars for a long time, but they screwed the consumer. Apple is an extremely trustworthy brand, but they screwed the consumer. Wells Fargo is a great brand, but they were fabricating accounts.
What do you have against me being able to read the numbers on a brake shoe to tell if two brake shoes are either identical in all ways, or if they are made by the same (or different) manufacturer?
Why would you hate me having that information?

I'm sorry if you think that being able to read the numbers printed on a brake shoe in order to tell if that shoe is identical to another shoe or made by the same company makes me a paranoid idiot.
I'm sorry if knowing the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient of a friction material makes me a paranoid idiot.
There's nothing I can say to you if you think that, which will change your mind. We must just disagree.
You seem to think information about friction for friction materials is bad. I seem to think it's a fundamental first order data for any friction pad.
We will just have to disagree.

I'm sorry you think I'm paranoid for wanting to know what the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient is for the OEM shoes and for the shoes that I put on the vehicle.
One thing that this "paranoia" will get me, and that's the fact that I hope to *never* put on any vehicle the same pads you put on yours, since EE pads are, as you know, only marginally better in friction than no pads at all.

Well - we do *agree* on one thing! :)

See! There *is* common ground between us!

Actually, at $157 a set, I can't ask the owner to pay that much for an SAE J866a Chase Test FF shoe when I may be able to get an SAE J866a Chase Test FF shoe from the *same* manufacturer for around 20 or 30 bucks.
It's all in the branding that the 176-page PDF decodes for us.

I'm younger than you, so I don't know all those clever repartee's yet.

Agreed. But you don't have any proof, do you, that the SAE J866a Chase Test is being abused?
Even if it was abused, the standards require all pads to state their actual company of origin no matter what brand.
Why do you hate me having this information of who actually made the shoe?

Just a moment ago you repeatedly claimed I was paranoid. Now you claim that the SAE J866a standards as reported in this 176-page PDF are all faked?
AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011 <http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf
Where's your shred of proof?

Why don't you trust that the number on pad 1, if it's the same as the number on pad 2, even if the brand is completely different, is the same pad?
I'll open a separate discussion for the police report, as you bring up some very good points when you assert the EE pads outperformed the FF pads.
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On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:45:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

ASS U ME make an ASS of YOU and ME

If you are so smart how come you couldn't come upwith the current edition of the report?
Quite some engineer, Isee.
http://www.ameca.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-December-8-2017.pdf is the Dec 8, 2017 versiion

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