How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 12/21/2016 10:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:

...
None of those are even close to the sidewall; they're all well out in tread area.

All of the above in greater/lesser degree depending on just where and how bad the damage is...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:36 -0600, dpb advised:

Thank you for the information as some were on the last tread groove (see below how we patched it with a home-made plug patch.

Thank you for that advice because I wasn't sure at all how close you can get to the sidewall for it to fail the patch test.
We patched this alloy-wheel 55-series tire where a flat-on-both-sides tiny bolt (with no sharp edges whatsoever) had wedged itself into the last groove, and eventually punctured the tire.
http://i.cubeupload.com/09PwHs.jpg
Here you see the tiny (now headless) bolt next to the puncture hole:
http://i.cubeupload.com/6F0CnI.jpg
To properly patch that hole, we reamed the hole with this hand tool:
http://i.cubeupload.com/sZ6qxo.jpg
Using that hand tool, we probed the hole slant (it went in straight):
http://i.cubeupload.com/UxYLNx.jpg
Then we grabbed this second hand tool & slobbered glue on the plug:
http://i.cubeupload.com/EMU9zy.jpg
This is the plug sticking up on the outside of the 55-series tire:
http://i.cubeupload.com/V1dCGA.jpg
To cut off the protruding plug, we failed trying the diagonal cutter:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ra3Prp.jpg
We also failed with the flush dikes because the plug was too rubbery:
http://i.cubeupload.com/M2BHaA.jpg
We ended up slicing it off with a utility knife but we learned how to slice the plug off more neatly when we cut off the plug protruding on the inside:
http://i.cubeupload.com/r0n5WI.jpg
The dremel tool metal blade cut off the plug flush with the inside wall:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QSBXAK.jpg
Then we buffed with a wire wheel, where we learned that it would be much nicer to have a "ball" shaped wire wheel because of the angles involved in buffing away the outside rubber to expose the virgin rubber to the vulcanizing glue:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QNrRco.jpg
Here is the buffed result before applying the patch over the plug:
http://i.cubeupload.com/otho8w.jpg
After applying vulcanizing glue, we stitched down the patch:
http://i.cubeupload.com/BrkYl3.jpg
Where this is what the final patch looked like:
http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg
Any advice you can provide will be helpful as the whole point was to learn by doing, where already I'd do it differently the next time (e.g., I'd use the dremel tool on both the inside and outside and I would get a roundish wire brush that fit the inside of a tire better.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 12/21/16 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:

Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)
--
Make America great again? Hell, I'd be happy if you just made it America
again.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:

That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.
Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do something that I *should* be able to do at home.
We should all be able to: a. Mount and dismount a tire at home b. Patch a tire at home c. Balance a wheel at home
I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have).
Here I found that breaking the bottom bead on an alloy wheel 55-series tire was tremendously easier than it was on the 75-series SUV steel-wheel tires (but you notice how I positioned the purpose-built HF bead-breaking tool with a board on one end and the HF tire changer on the other end):
http://i.cubeupload.com/ngg3X3.jpg
Then I learned to mark the position of the valve since we'd normally be re-using these tires and we would want the balance to be the same as it was before (at least as a starting point):
http://i.cubeupload.com/5Kl0Dy.jpg
Breaking the top bead was so easy that it doesn't need explanation:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PouqLx.jpg
Likewise, levering off the top bead from the alloy wheel was easy peasy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CIiEKR.jpg
Levering off the bottom bead from the alloy wheel was also very easy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/477H02.jpg
Then, it was time to plug and patch the hole, which, in this case, was made by a bolt that was NOT sharp!
http://i.cubeupload.com/jxxp46.jpg
The bolt may have wedged into the groove and slowly punctured the tire: Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is not going to be helpful).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 12/21/16 2:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:

Guess everyone needs a hobby ;-)
--
You can’t get rich in politics unless you’re a crook.
- President Harry Truman
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 12/21/2016 12:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:

Next time the bike needs new shoes I'll give you a shout. Then there's patching the tire in the woods or in some random parking lot. I don't balance them. With knobbies, how would you ever know?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 20:28:28 -0700, rbowman advised:

If this group were named ladies.cookies_and_crochet, then the question wouldn't be apropos of how to decide when a tire is repairable.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
If I were the only driver on the planet, and never drove closer than 500 me ters from another living creature, this discussion might be relevant at the level of detail incurred so far.
But, I drive on crowded roads with other drivers who have lives of their ow n. And the occasional school bus with a few dozen children on board. And the occasional fluids-tanker or propane tanker with flammable and explo sive materials on board.
So, here we are on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Speed Limit: 70). And my left -front tire shatters on a curve. I start spinning into the other lane and w affle a school bus into a gasoline tanker. *POOF*.
Turns out that the tire-removal, patching, balancing and re-installation we re all mine, using Harbor Freight tools based on advice received in this ve nue.
What is my ethical position? Pretty wretched in any case, and probably crim inal.
It is very clear, at least to me, that this idiot in search of a village ha s the ethics of a politician, the morals of an evangelical preacher and the wisdom of a common housefly. And all this blather is about avoiding 'bad n ews' and having to take responsibility for his actions. Why would I go to a mechanic to align my vehicle, patch a tire or do any number of other fairl y simple tasks? Because that mechanic is trained to see things that I do no t. That mechanic (and ours are very, very good) will tell me what I need to know whether I like it or not. And my mechanic DOES use the right tool for the job, does not accept "good enough" and more.
Do not engage with this creature. It will ask and ask and ask the same ques tion in many different ways and in many different venues until it gets the answer it wants. And then it will take action based on that answer and take those results out on the road with other innocents, hang the consequences. I hope, when Horatio/Norman/John/frank is finally awarded his richly deser ved, far-to-long delayed Darwin Award, it is a solo action and does not inv olve group participation.
Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:47:29 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@aol.com advised:

The reason men here can *fix* things, is the same reason that men can build airplanes and rockets and fly around the earth and to the moon.
The simple reason is that men who can "do stuff" pay attention to *detail*. Specifically, without paying attention to detail, nobody can build or fix anything.
Specifically, detail is required to *understand* how things work, where those who can't handle such detail are doomed in many endeavors in life.
Worse, men (like you appear to be) who can't handle detail, are doomed to make completely incorrect conclusions, since all you see is the top layer of everything which is complex.
Since you only see the top layer, you see nothing of the detail underneath, dooming you to ascribe causes to things which are just not the case.
In fact, you're forever doomed to make incorrect conclusions, simply because you (apparently) lack the ability to handle detail (which is required for comprehensive thought processes).

Um. OK. So do we all.
While you don't seem to be able to handle detail, you do seem to handle fear very well.
The only reason you added that otherwise meaningless statement above was to increase the fear, since *emotion* is what you feel given you are apparently unable to comprehend detail.
What you're doing with that statement above is what all politicians do when they want the masses to be mislead. You are working on pure emotion, hoping your audience is, like you, unable to comprehend your lack of detail.

There should be an analysis upcoming of what caused the tire to "shatter". In that analysis, I would expect detail from most men, but not from you. From you, all I expect is upcoming emotion.

Your complete and utter lack of detail makes your entire argument moot. What exactly caused your left-front tire to "shatter"?
You don't have a clue. Therefore, all you have is emotion.

Again, you'd make a great politician because you lack detail and yet, you ply emotion instead.

What I find amazing is that I have been responding to you, in line, where I have ascribed the ethics and tactics of a politician to YOU.
Me? I provide far too much detail and truth to be a politician.

That you use the word "blather" when detail was provided shows *exactly* how your mind works.
Engineering detail is "blather" to you. Hence, your only input is purely emotional.

Thank you for stating for yourself, exactly what I have surmised from your very words, which is that you are incapable of handling detail.
You should recognize this inability to handle detail for what it is, which is a disability I don't have. I have *plenty* of other disabilities mind you (e.g., I go far too deeply into detail for my own good), so it is cathartic for you to recognize that most of your technical conclusions will be wrong, since you are operating on sheer emotion.
As long as you know your limitations, you won't be a danger to society.
I know mine - which is that I spend far too much time and energy on things that are merely interesting in their myriad details.
This newsgroup seems to have *plenty* of political posts (for some odd reason), so you should be happy here, as am I as there are few, but existent engineering style posts also.

You are incapable of making that assessment because you lack the details that I have which is critical in assessing whether a mechanic actually performs the job correctly.
All you're operating on is intuitive emotion. I'm pretty sure you're a Myers-Briggs highly intuitive person.
That's fine - but you're also a highly Judgmental person, which, put together, makes all your *decisions* dangerous (but that's a topic for alt.psychology newsgroups).

Again, you operate on pure intuitive emotion, sans any valid facts. That means your opinions are based on absolutely nothing concrete. At best, you'll be 50% correct, although you'll be convinced that you are 100% correct since you are the one assessing yourself.

You do realize that you're operating, like a girl, on pure emotion, right? This is a thread about how to properly repair a tire. This newsgroup is apropos for such a discussion.
Your discussion is really apropos for a newsgroup titled more akin to men.who.wear.ladies.pink.panties or some such rot. :)

Exactly. Detail scares you.
You really may be one who is better off in the psychology groups since you seem to be *afraid* of detail, such that anyone who delves into detail scares you so much that you actually fall to the depths of depravity to stoop so low as to warn others that people may ask for detail on the automobile and home and science repair newsgroups.
Your use of "it" shows your depravity indeed. Therefore I discount you out of hand, for utter lack of detail.
You're the same kind of Myers-Briggs person who is highly intuitive and highly judgemental, who actually thinks cell phones cause accidents (without a shred of detailed reliable proof backing up your claims).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 1:47:41 PM UTC-5, Frank Baron wrote:

Cell phones do not cause accidents. Fully agreed. Guns do not kill people. Absolutely.
Idiot operators of both are the problem. Not the objects themselves.
Real Men are 100% responsible for their actions, and do not create risks for others on a whim or out of stubborn self-righteousness.
Real Men understand that there are things that require a level of care and expertise that a tool from Harbor Freight and advice from the internet (on an electronics group, no less) do not convey.
http://stoptextsstopwrecks.org/tagged/facts?gclid=Cj0KEQiAkO7CBRDeqJ_ahuiPrtEBEiQAbYupJRhCIloLHDsunoNXS2iCqh6_GpuOBq98Wcgt1bm8ecMaAieL8P8HAQ
And as to distracted driving, you are flat out wrong.
I post over my real name and location. You do not. What are you (presumably a Real Man) afraid of?
Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:37:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4 advised:

I understand you completely. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.
I think I'm telling you something you don't already seem to know though.
Everyone, including me, would *intuitively* say the same thing. I can't disagree with the intuition.
I have intuition myself.
The difference between me and you is that I don't *trust* my intuition as much as you seem to trust your intuition (and certainly, neither of us trusts our intuition as much as pfjw trusts his intuition).
So what do I do that is different from you? Simple.
I check my facts.
That's it. I simply intuit (like you do); but I double check the facts.
Most people don't. They can't handle the detail involved.
My intuition says that a cat stuck in a tree won't come down without the fire department or some other rescue effort. But it's just not true when you look at the facts.
My intuition says that a mountain lion in the woods would attack a human it sees, but the facts show extremely few attacks. So intuition is trumped by facts (for the most part, since some attacks do occur but not as many as you would intuit).
My intuition says that the sun revolves around the earth, and if someone didn't tell me otherwise, I'd still believe my intuition. But facts always trump intuition.
My intuition says that appeasement in politics should work, but facts show that appeasement doesn't seem to work on most dictators; it just encourages them.
Intuition that is not supported by facts is just pure speculation.
For example, pfjw, who clearly is a highly-intuitive highly-judgmental person (in Myers-Brigg's terms), feels, intuitively, that my repairs are unsafe.
Does he supply a single fact to support his safety claims? Not one.
Can anything he says be believed? Probably not.
Does *he* firmly believe everything he says? Almost certainly he does.
Highly intuitive highly judgmental people are dangerous that way, if they ever have power. They make decisions that they think are correct but which are not supported by any facts.

I can show you an arbitrary non-real-world study that proves almost anything that I want to prove, simply by limiting the variables in the study, so, as you already know, we'd have to look at each study you claim to prove your point to see what its limitations are.
If I set my mind to it, I can probably prove, for example, that cancer is caused by almost anything I want to prove is carcinogenic.
However, the double check of the study is the real world.
In the real world, nobody on this planet has ever been able to prove any correlation in the accident statistics overall that can be atributd to cellphone use while driving.
In fact, since the accident rate is steadily decreasing in all states, with or without enforcement of cellphone laws, the opposite may actually be true (but I won't go that far).
In summary, you and I (and everyone else) would *intuitively* feel that cellphones are an added distraction which should cause added accidents; but the facts show otherwise.
Why is that? Most morons posit a mysterious counteracting force, which is possible, but they never provide any proof of this mysterious force, so, it's not probable.
What's most likely, IMHO, is the simple model that says distractions while driving abound. There are literally thousands of distractions in any daily drive. Thousands upon thousands.
So, my hypothesis, which fits the model that accidents are just not occurring due to cellphone use, is that adding one more distraction to an already long list of distractions only adversely affects the bottom percentiles of drivers - who - the fact seem to show - would have distracted driving accidents no matter what.
While that model isn't proven by me, it fits the facts. Your model doesn't fit the facts.
How do you reconcile that your model does not fit the facts? (Hint: That will take intelligence & attention to detail, but not pure intuitive judgemental emotion.)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I can't do that and have no desire to do so. In the past 20 years I can think of three tires needing repair. My car came with roadside service so I called the number and a guy comes and changes the tire for me. In two cases, the tire was not repairable in the third, i drove it to a shop.
Economics is also a factor. The cost of the seup is much more than I spent in tire repairs and that even included what I pay when buying new tires.
If cars are your hobby, it may be OK. For the average driver, it is silly.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 17:27:44 -0500, Ed Pawlowski advised:

I completely understand your sentiment. I had the same sentiment earlier in my life.
Over time, it frustrated me to watch others perform tire changes incorrectly.
Those repeatedly incorrect tire changes were what prompted me to do it myself.
Plus I like learning.

Wow. I seem to have at least one a year, and sometimes more (lately).
I canvassed the neighborhood, and we found one sedan with two punctures on the same side of the vehicle (she's buying new tires as we speak so we may repair hers for practice when they're dismounted at the shop and brought home).
If flats were as uncommon as you seem to feel they may be, then why hasn't the spare tire gone the way of the dashboard oil pressure gage?

My wife has AAA. It makes her feel safe. Truth is, if she has a problem, she calls me. If I need the car towed home, where I have better tools, I call AAA.
So, we're in agreement. AAA is wonderful for towing. I'm sure they're great for running out of gas. And, perhaps for opening locked car doors (if possible nowadays).
I don't know any guy who would call someone else for something as simple as changing a tire though. It almost takes longer to make the call to AAA than it does to change the tire yourself. Even if it didn't, you'll be waiting for the truck to arrive far longer than it takes to change the tire.
How long does it take you to change a tire anyway?

Yup. All the tires I fixed were not repairable due to the lack of tread. Had the owners driven on the tires, the belts would be showing on the inside, and hence they would not have been repairable. Had the holes been at the edge of the steel belts, again, they would not have been repairable. Had the holes been larger than a quarter inch, they would not have been repairable.
However, except for treadwear, the tires I worked on were repairable, which was the main question after all.

We already showed that out here, the cheapest shop is about $20 to $25 per tire, so, that's $80 to $100 for a mount and balance. I'm sure a tire repair is along the same lines of cost.
I've raised my tool estimate from $200 to $250 because I'm adding the cost of the carbide reamer, the cone buffer, and an assortment of weights, in addition to the separate stand-alone bead breaker.
So, using round easy numbers, at $25 per tire, it will take 10 tires to recoup the investment, which we can double to 20 tires for a safe margin on the math.
At an average of 4 tires every two years plus one flat every two years, for a two-car family, that's a replacement or repair of 5 tires a year (which is pretty much fitting my use model).
So it will take two to four years to recoup the investment in tools.
I have lots of tools that recouped their cost in the first use, and others which took five or more years, so, that's just about in the range of expected return on investment.

Is the average homeowner on alt.home.repair, or the average car driver on rec.autos.tech?
I would hope all of you are a cut above average. I know I am.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 12/22/2016 8:29 PM, Frank Baron wrote:

I drive about 22,000 miles a year and the worst case is to add some air a couple of times. Present car has 25,000 miles and for the first time I had to put air in one when the TPM went of when it was 7 degrees one morning.

Ah, it pretty much has. Many cars have a can of air now.

It was dark, about 35 degrees and raining. Took the guy about a half hout to show up and do the change. Meantime I shopped in Home Depot.
The first time was a dozen years ago. I ran over a body bolt and it made a big hole in the sidewall. Car was about two months old. I took the other car to work. Dealer came over, took the tire off and mounted a new one, put it back. No idea how long it took them but I lost no time. Had to pay for the tire, of course.
When I was a teenager driving a '53 Merc with either used tire or recaps, I changed many tires. Found a better way.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

In 44 years I've had 5 tires go flat "on the road" 3 of those on one trip due to faulty valve stems (on the PT Cruiser on PEI), 1 due to a cinder in the black hills of the Dakotas at -40 on the '69 dart, and one on a sunday afternoon on the '63 Valiant (with no bumpers so I had to jack it by the trunk lid.) I've had a few go flat on the driveway that could be aired up and driven to the shop. I've never had one damaged to the point it was not repairable due to running flat. Both of the ones that failed flat on the road were down low enough on tread that I ended up replacing the full set shortly later. I'm a former auto mechanic and I won't "patch" a tire in the field unless I have to. I patched a lot as a kid on the farm (tube type on wagons) and bikes, lawn tractors etc., and a LOT in the shop as a mechanic.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 23:14:20 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:

Most of my flats have been slow leaks which gave me time to air them up and get home, once they were noticed.
I almost never drive highway nowadays, so, my 15K miles is on side roads, where there is some construction. I average something like 1 flat a year, sometimes more, sometimes less.
Anyway, they wouldn't put spares in cars if flats didn't happen.

I did drive with a very low tire for about a mile. The tire was filled with fluffy rubber shavings, and the belts inside were showing. So it was stupid, in hindsight, to run them when they were flat.

Depends on what you call the field. If I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere, it's getting an external plug if, for whatever reason, the spare doesn't cut the mustard.

Yeah. I replaced my first bicycle tire using a screwdriver, and holed the tube so many times I had to buy a new one. Kids learn by doing. So do adults.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca explained :

One time as I was crossing some railroad tracks, I heard my tire going phtt phtt phtt phtt with every rotation. I pulled over and put on my spare. Took the tire to a shop to see what happened and to get it repaired if possible. The object which punctured the tire was found inside, it was a spark plug.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 01:13:08 -0500, FromTheRafters advised:

Wow. A apark plug. I wonder if that's what I ran over?
One day, decades ago, when I was just an obnoxious kid, I was following a truck at night on a crowded New York highway and I made the mistake of pissing him off (I was young and stupid). I probably beeped him or flipped him the bird but I don't remember what I did nor what he did to cause the altercation. He may have been innocent and he is just circumstantial, but while I was following him, my tire suddenly blew.
All I remember was hearing a loud POW and my tire was flat instantly.
There was a gash in the tire tread, as I recall, and nothing else visible. As if a knife had been stuck in the tire. I changed to the spare, and remember thinking, "never piss off truckers" (and I never did again, since truckers are not your friend).
A day or two later, when the tire is replaced, there is an actual deep mark in the alloy wheels on the *inside* of the rim directly across from where that gash was, but no object. To this day, I don't know what suddenly flattened that tire; but whatever it was, it was big.
Whatever flattened that tire was long enough to go inside the tire and touch the inside of the rim which is a few inches, but it then came out. It was like as if a railroad spike had been run over.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Frank Baron:
Not saying the trucker did anything to cause your flat that night, but: Not all truckers like their jobs. Many are under pressures not self-imposed, but by their employers or customers, to get product to stores where you and I can buy it. And sometimes their driving habits show it: Speeding, tail-gating other drivers, frequent lane changes, frequent use of the horns, etc.
Best just to give them their room. Remember: this is not Star Wars - they are not "Imperial Star Destroyers" and we are not Luke in his X-wing, or Han Solo in the Falcon, zooming by them in outer space and taunting them. LOL
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.