oil analysis - lots of silicium ?

Hello,

I was referring to Scott Dorsey's remark.:-) The engine is described in the thread. It was turned w/o plugs before start. I have no clue as to which brand of oil was used.

Thanks,

Peter

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peter
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A dry/wet compression test on the engine will tell volumes about how worn out it is! You can get a cheap tester at the auto parts stores or have it done pretty inexpensively.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

If it is the oil containing SiO2 - if it is sandy silicon - would the engine still have a chance to survive ? I know I can't do anything else, except change engine for ease of mind.

But this thread seems to point out this pollution and wear is exceptional. I am thinking about the method HLS mentioned about cleaning the oil pan, at least ...

Thanks,

Peter

Reply to
peter

Well, if not ghosts, then at least a close approximation. I agree with everyone who's said that a single-point oil analysis is not very helpful unless it shows UNEQUIVOCAL evidence of coolant or immenent bearing failure, etc. This one is just too muddled to make sense of.

Reply to
Steve

Silicone sealant is a polymer made with a silicone backbone. Silicone sealant is to silicon what rubber and paraffin are to carbon.

Burned RTV will test positive for silicon, as well grindings from silicon steel. Road dust too.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Yes, but it will cost more money. Basically you want to know if the silicon is in solution or part of the particle mix.

But if you did this on a ten-mile sample, it's worthless anyway. Get a real sample with a thousand miles or so on the oil and see.

No, for this you need gas chromatography.

One simple test, though, is to thin the oil down, centrifuge it, and see which of the high and low fractions test positive. This is something your local lab can do.

But with ten miles on the oil, you won't learn anything.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

I dunno, the guys in the military are experts at ruining engines, I assure you. I could tell some stories.

Anyway, that outrageously high aluminum number is very suspect, for that exact reason.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Agree. The whole thing is suspect. It is like the old story of the several blind men who each touch the elephant and decide what it must look like.

Reply to
<HLS

Hi,

This reply to all of you, I would not know where to add it to :-)

The lab's senior technician has been in touch with me. He enlightened a few points which leaves things a bit less "muddled".

But bottom line is : very high wear. He'd seen engines ruined from less Si. Luckily other wear is not yet visible.

normal aluminium content after normally used oil change : 7 - 10 ppm for this car

149 ppm Si means analysis 1 has distinghuised SiO2 from other Si - original figure was 250 ppm corresponding to analysis 2

particles size : < 5 µm - all suspended

additional figures ( oil additifs ? ):

analysis 1 analysis 2

1850 ppm Ca 2461 normal 519 Zn 884 " 473 Fosforus 741 " 26 Mg 26 "

0 Na -> no coolant problems

For now,

Peter

"Steve" schreef >

Reply to
peter

Sorry,

Forgot to mention : if overheating cannot be ruled out, high aluminium wear seems typical of overheating. Leaves Si to be explained if that is true. I would not know where overheating can have occurred, but it is a possibility. Indeed you must feel when you're blind, but you can also smell ...

Thanks,

Peter

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peter

And thank you all for your time.

Peter

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peter

I think it is good that you spoke with the lab tech, or whatever he is, but I still dont think you have gotten to the bottom of this issue.

He suggested overheating, perhaps... Has that been the case? How does he suggest you get the wear ratings, which he has claimed, back under control?

Reply to
<HLS

I had my coolant changed elsewhere, and the engine turned for a while without ( much ) coolant. But I did not notice any problems when I took it back to the road again. And I have driven quite a while before I found this wear in new oil. Pity the mechanic did not keep my old oil as I had asked. There was not so much iron, and the lab person did not have any remarks on that.

Another problem associated with overheating, I read, are wrist pins. and they generate aluminium possibly as well.

My worry is that bearings maybe have had a start in being ruined. So maybe the most sensible thing would be to take the oil pan off, and verify what's in there and in the oil filter, at the same time checking some of the main bearings and the underside of the cylinder walls and pistons. At this moment I don't have the space, time or physical inclination to do so, but I begin to wonder whether that would not be the best of solutions ...

If there's no other silicon than micron-sized and suspended, I could talk to the oil company. The lab technician said I could maybe still drive a hundred miles with this oil, but I see no point in continuing the damage.

So, to really try and have some info, I could ask Opel and the oil company. But am I sure to get help ?

Thanks again,

Peter

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peter

Why not just do a compression test? It takes all of 15 minutes tops to do. Then you know if the engine has any damage.

I would also change the oil and filter again and have the 'new' tested after 10 miles. I would also want to be there to be sure the garage just didn't play me for a fool and only 'say' they changed the oil....

Is that garage in the business of selling or rebuilding engines by any chance?

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

Hi,

I don't know how the compression was before. I could try to borrow a hi-gauge, yes. After I change the oil. Wouldn't it be as cheap to check on the bearings as changing oil twice ? Because I would have to renew the oil after that work again anyway.

I think the garage which changed the oil did not like me to hang around. I hope it didn't offend them. They don't rebuild engines, and I trusted them because they didn't seem all that difficult about "amateurs". I need to tell you I changed the oil first time after storage myself, then had it changed after 2000 miles.

There could be some legal issues involved now anyway. Terribly stressful.

Thanks,

Peter

"
Reply to
peter

Checking the bearings takes specialty tools like torque wrenches, plastigage and then a pan gasket. It is generally a pain in the but to do in the vehicle. In some vehicles, the engine must come out or be lifted up at the least.

I am still under the impression you sucked a pile of dust that the vacuum job missed into the engine. Especially if you put a whopping

2000 miles on a used air filter with holes blown into it.....

But anyway you look at it, the dust had to get from the combustion chamber to the oil. This would imply high piston ring wear that would show up in a compression test. Some air filters even have the PCV air intake in them that gives a direct route for the dust to the oil via the valve cover.

Do you have an oil pressure gauge? If so, worn bearings will show up as low oil pressure.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

Maybe. Just a torque wrench - not too specialised, I have one - and a gasket. I would just check for marks, because nothing showed in the oil about bearing particles.

I don't think the rings have gone that far. I had the impression I had torque and power driving those 10 miles. However, I can't really compare - again. I can't know about the air filter, but the quantities seem out of proportion. Because they can't come from those 2000 miles, they're suspended and uniformly present ( took two samples top and bottom which showed identical ).

I have a fourth sample coming up, and another feedback from the lab. It was sent in by an engine rebuilder. Maybe he'll make a price for whatever is necessary, and give some feedback.

Easier to get and use a hi-gauge than an oil gauge, probably ?

I'm terribly sorry I can't go further than bits and bytes yet. I'll make sure to post any outcome for your info.

Thanks,

Peter

"Mike Romain" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@sympatico.ca...

Reply to
peter

I for one am curious, so an update would be appreciated.

The plastigauge tells the wear on the bearings. You remove the bearing cap and put the plastic rod inside and torque it back on, then remove it and see how far the rod flattened. The stuff comes with a gauge that says how much clearance there is according to how flat it got. If there were no bearing particles in the oil, well.... As for the 2000 miles with no real air filter, you still don't say you actually saw them change the oil....

Good Luck!

Mike

peter wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

Hi Mike,

I have tried plastigauge once. Not so easy I thought. Also, I had the impression since you take away the clearance, you can have particles embedded in the bearings by doing this. I really think I had that problem, but of course they could have been there before.

I can think your last remark can explain something, but not all. All depends then on how much problems there are with the rings.

Thanks !

Peter

Reply to
peter

. Also, I had the

Forgot to mention I did this on an engine I was about to assemble, ie. on a dry assembly. I admit I just tried to have an idea and maybe that's not the proper conditions to use plastigauge.

Reply to
peter

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