oil analysis - lots of silicium ?

Usually the engines here hold about 5 quarts, which is roughly 4.7 litres. At 97 ppm, that would be about 450 mg, or darn near a half gram...That is a lot.

Something doesnt add up here. Change the oil and filter, let it run for a few days and repeat the analysis.

Right, and remember this is after only a few miles of actual running time. At this rate, the whole block will have dissoved in a month.

More than a few days. Get 1,000 miles on it, minimum.

--scott

i used to be employed by an oil-blending company where many oils were actually blended and in a sense made. i have seen varous amounts of liquid silicon poured into this blending process. i have no idea of the amount but i know that it varies with each oil made. one day while visiting with the chemist that worked there (a true friggin genius) i inquired about this and he went through a whole long process of explanation in which i was as lost as i could be. but i do know that he told me that the silicon level could not get high enough to harm an engine.the type of silicon that is being used in the oil is somehow different from what you and i think of as silicone. i would be more concerned about the aluminum content than i would the silicon.

Hello,

Thanks for your attention and advice. Indeed, I don't worry about silicon in the oil. I probably didn't pay much for it. It is the combination with aluminium - and iron ? - I would like to understand..

The correlation, as HLS suggested, should be established. I'll try to have a different analysis if it is affordable. But if the block will be dissolved in a month, I don't intend to run it for now ...

Sincere thanks,

Peter

plainoldmechanic" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

There's little doubt that dust (silicon) is getting past your air filter. The presence of iron and aluminium is also typical of the wear pattern you'd associate with dust abrasion (pistons and cylinder bores).

It's not unusual to find pin holes in air filter elements, especially if they've been cleaned with compressed air at some time -- it's the reason why heavy diesels have safety elements (a second filter on the engine side of the main element).

I'd be looking for a damaged filter or an air leak on the engine side of the filter. Is the idle speed normal? Is the filter a reputable brand?

Can you access a filter wash service? I'm not familiar with the situation in USA (I'm in Australia) but if filter washing is a common practice those who do it should also be able to test the element for holes. At least this would provide some confirmation as to where the problem lies.

I'm also curious as to why you had the oil tested after only 10 miles

-- presumably you have some reason to suspect a problem?

-- John H

Hello John,

Good point : to the sun, I can see pin holes. It has been cleaned with compressed air. But on this timescale, I wonder how it can happen that way.

Thanks,

Peter

"John_H" schreef > >

He was talking about silicone oils. They were developed for military lubricants because of their unusual temperature versus viscosity properties. They also kill foam... whether in engines or intestines, and are often call simethicone (in over the counter medicines).

And last but not least, they were used, sometimes disastrously, to make flat chested women be able to win by much more than a nose.

Check the air induction hoses, vacuum lines, PCV system, everything. Hoses crack, fall off, filter canisters split. They all let dirt into the engine, and some can let it directly into the crankcase, especially the PCV inlet from the PCV filter in the air cleaner. The PCV valve grommet gets old and loose. Is silicone sealant really related to mineral silicon? The spelling is not the same, though many mix it up, and people often assume that similar spelling means the same stuff.

Dan

If you have been driving in really sandy area like you state with a beat up old 8000 mile air filter full of holes from compressed air cleans like you state, then you could have sucked a pile of dust into the system really fast.

What 'kind' of sand is carried past your place? Maybe it also has a high aluminum count in it as well as silicon?

I know I sure don't get even close to 8000 miles on an air filter. That would be 2 oil changes. I am lucky to get to one oil change before having to change the filter on my Jeep CJ7 because I bush run that, but even on our Cherokee, come oil change time and the air filter is always too dirty to reuse. I don't blow them out, I change them.

I also am interested as to 'why' you had it tested other than the color?

Does the engine burn oil or have low power or something?

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >

Yes, silicone sealants are based on silicon. Silicone oil antifoams and lubes are on the same chemistry.

Mike, He had his oil tested when it had about 10 miles on it, he said, and it showed nearly

100 ppm silicon. He didnt get that from his air filter in ten miles I dont think.

Hi

Is there any chance I can find in which form silicone or silicium is present in the quantities described ? I thought spectrography or spectrophotometry would also indicate the compounds in which silicone is present, by relating masses of known elements in molecules ? Possibly the standard test for engine oil does not include that particular analysis ?

I suspect an electron microscope and analist is not readily available for an affordable price ? But maybe it would answer my questions better than any other measure I would take.

I hope monday the lab people will be able to provide me with some more answers.

For now,

Peter

schreef in bericht news:sJ7bf.13043$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

Hi,

There was an open air sand pit, with a lot of trucks driving past the house. They didn't use covers. Only, they have decreased in numbers significantly the past year, but there is a lot of sand left.

It is one explanation sand accumulated in the engine compartment during the past storage, but it would not explain sand ingestion during the 10 mile drive since the oil change.

It is all micron-sized particles, I was told. From where would they come ? From an even higher amount stuck in the air or oil filter ? I admit an air filter should not be used long in extreme conditions, but mine aren't. Besides it wasn't showing more dirt on the outside.

As I said, I had the opportunity to test it after I took a sample out when looking at the colour. It looked as if it was not only oil. I expected to hear it contained some accidental pollutant, other liquid or whatever. It seemed safer to trust oil analysis would identify foreign substances in a more coplete way. Now it seems they test for the more common pollutants. Or they did not find any more. I hope to find out from the lab.

Thanks,

Peter

Yes, there are analytical procedures which will tell you what actual compounds are present.

Organic silicones are easily 'seen' by infrared spectroscopy, nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometry, and the like. If the mol weights are not too high, they can be caught by mass spectrometry.

Silicon dioxide (inorganic) in its various forms can be identified by X-ray diffraction, among others.

When you use a technique like ICP spec, the sample is burned in the plasma, and you can see silicon, but you have no idea what form it would have been in.

These techniques can get to be expensive.

If you go down the analysis path further, I would suggest you have a sample of the pure lubricating oil - direct from the bottle - analyzed as a benchmark.

But, below the bottom line, if you are seeing excess wear, what can you do except change your oil or experiment with other types of oils?

If you service your oil, filter, and air filter often, the rest is pretty much out of your hands.

Keep your air filter serviced (not blown out, changed for a new one), change your oil and filter at 3-4000 mile intervals. There isnt much more you can do. Except move.

Hi,

Yes, I could just try to clean and hope for the best.

But when I find out where the problem came from, I can determine if the engine has suffered or ingested more than I see now. Maybe more is needed. I would be driving blind just trusting on an oil change.

I found another reference for an analysis. Maybe they can switch to other techniques with the known results, and it would cost just a bit more.

Puzzled but slightly enlightened,

Peter

schreef in bericht news:Ro8bf.13062$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

Well, he stated the vehicle was stored and the engine compartment and air filter had to be blown out with compressed air because of sand/dust build up before he could drive it or maybe he drove it full of dust to the garage even?

It is 'really' hard to get rid of sand and dust....

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Evenin'

I did not drive it full of dust. I should have clarified that after storage I cleaned everything out just to avoid having this problem, but all with a vacuum cleaner, rags and petroleum. I only forgot the air filter was just blown out at the previous major service, and I should have replaced it as well. But it wasn't full of dirt.

Thanks for your attention, I will not forget to post about any more information, but for the lab, it will have to wait until monday.

Peter

block disolved in a month!?boy,i'll bet the military wants that formula!what kinda car and motor are we talkin about here with how many miles?is this some kinda antique/classic?oil analysis?sounds like a better racket then vetinary wallet cleaning.before storage i would add/run an oil stabilizer to guarantee oil stays in the bearings/surfaces so you dont have dry starts.also WD type stuff down spark plug holes.try changin the oil/filter again and see if it changes color on you like before.