Questions about the trade from someone interested.

as far as learning how to think, that is priceless advice i am sure. However at least one of my questions should have been aswered for your reply to even attempt to have substance. Your "advice" was ambiguosly mediocre at best if u can't help then don't reply.

Good response. I would have given the idiot stronger words to wind up his blood pressure, only because his time would have been better spent growing a brain.

As to your original question; take a night class somewhere before you commit to a full time career, just to see if you can cut the program and if you really like it. Amass some tools in a decent tool box (at least the tools will be useful down the road), and decide if you really want to come home with crud under your nails while trying to live on a low end dollar for a few years

On the bright side, some people have a lot of pride in what they do, and do well for themselves. The work can be very interesting and you do have to use your brain.

Check out some local schools that offer a program and talk it up with the students already enrolled to find out how well the course is run. Know that the schooling is only a taste. The real education is applying it on the job and it never stops.

I trust you won't look too hard at my spelling/grammer :)

Pete Licenced automotive mechanic Licenced heavy equipment mechanic Vocational education instructor

Gee lawnmower experience!! Why "plunk" 17k on training?? You'll be a natural in the automotive service industry!!

Get off you butt and get a job. Change oil at Wal-Mart at minimum wage and then graduate to Jiffy Lube. Then become a porter or grease monkey at a dealership. Get involved with cars and take some night classes at a voc. tech. college. Learn electronics theory also. (remedial english would also be advised).

Now network as much as you can with real mechanics and look for an opportunity to break into the field. Learn as much as you can. You'll always need to be one step ahead with changes in automtive technology.

If you're really good at what you do word will spread and you'll be sought after. You aren't likely to get rich but you can do quite well.

If you have no apptitude for how things work and technology that pick another field.

Approximately 11/21/03 06:15, sabre uttered for posterity:

Pay is OK. Is a lot better if you enjoy working on cars. Even better yet if you get good enough at it to be a lead tech at a dealer or an independent specialist.

You'll need a pretty rounded education any more, particularly basic electricity and electronics. And if you expect to be in that business for a few years, good chemistry and physics with the new hybrids coming down the pike.

The good news is that the ability to really deal with the gremlins in modern engine controls and hybrids may just be rare enough that it may be worth a bit of extra money.

If you have images of a greasy fingered dropout style, get rid of them. The techs I see nowadays look more like automotive surgeons and work in areas you could eat off of.

I tend to take claims like those with a huge grain of salt, say one Bonneville Salt Flat's worth. Particularly if the tuition is out of line.

Rather than figure this out yourself, spend half a day and wander by a few local dealers and ask the service manager if you can get some advice on where they prefer to hire techs from.

The one good thing is that it is *extremely* hard to send auto tech jobs overseas. If any of those folks badmouthing auto techies happen to be computer science types, they have a very rude awakening in their future.

Tools are expensive. If you are any good, this will not be an issue. Don't be surprised if your major duties upon graduation are more along the lines of changing oil, cleaning ashtrays, cleaning crud out of A/C, etc. until the older mechanics know whether you can find the correct end of a torque wrench.

Approximately 11/21/03 11:54, sabre uttered for posterity:

Although perhaps not put in the best of manner, perhaps you may wish to consider that being anally retentively obsessively accurate and complete is an extremely useful trait in a good auto tech. As in being able to think and work fast and accurate and being willing to check your work...without taking a lot of time to do it.

Being an auto tech is a service business. See if your local colleges have attitude classes, or just drop out now and see how much the local QuickChange Oil places and Midas mufflers are willing to pay.

Sabre,

I'm a Lincoln Tech graduate. I received the instructors award (one per graduating class). I currently work for a municipality, but I worked for many dealerships before. Your education is what you make of it.

If you are not mechanically inclined, or electronically inclined, then you should find work elsewhere.

Lincoln Tech is for those who have been messing around with cars for a long time. They can teach you the basics, but if you are starting from square one, .... It's pointless. People that don't have a passion for mechanical/electronic machines, should stay clear of trade schools.

Lincoln Tech will teach you all that you want to learn, if you take in the information. I'm a master certified ASE and GM tech. I got my start at Lincoln Tech.

The same goes for medical students that want to be doctors. Some of them only qualify to be nurses.

GMdude

No, they're not, and somebody as careless as you with words may be just as carless about nuts and bolts in a car. Worse, you're arrogant, and I've never known of a good employee who was arrogant, except for some mathematicians, and they were effective only when kept in line by better mathematicians.

To evaluate a school, find out what its customers say about it, but remember that the real customers aren't the students but the people who hire them. For auto repair the best schools are probably the car makers' own (some junior colleges run them) and the military. Some people join the air force or navy and manage to spend all their years in technical schools and end up with about as much skill as some engineers.

The best automotive specialities may in electronics since cars are increasing in electronics content, and it seems that many mechanics have problems working on them.

After reading some of your other posts I wonder if English is a second language to you.. if so, I congratulate you for having the 'stick-to-it-tiveness' to learn a second language well enough to be understood by others. It's not very good though; take it however you want to but I second the idea of taking some english classes. For many people perception equals reality; if you communicate badly, some people think you're an idiot, even if you hold a PhD.. In addition, how well would you be able to understand a technical manual?

Analytical thinking is very important in troubleshooting.. I can't speak for the person you're replying to, but being able to think through a problem logically is one of the most important troubleshooting skills to have, IMHO.

Want to become an auto technician?..

If, as you say, you don't have any experience in working on cars, my honest opinion is that you'd be better off finding something else to do. Most of the techs that I know grew up tinkering with cars/engines.. it's not something they decided to try once they hit 20 or so. My advice would be to figure out what you enjoy doing, and find a way to get paid for it.

regards,

Jim

Saber, sounds like you are serious. Having taught in our state technical colleges a number of years, I would suggest you check with YOUR state's technical colleges. Often, they have "co-op" plans with local area dealerships, where they "sponsor" a student by giving him a job--menial tho' they may be in the beginning--as he studies at the 'Tech" school. As you progress in school, you will progress with level-of-difficulty jobs at the dealership. Probably make enough $ to pay your tuition and books--and if you come on strong, they might even pick up part of the tab. Hope you can find such a program thru your state-supported system. They are just as good, and sometimes better than commercial tech-institutes, and probly. much more affordable. BTW:If you do turn out to really love the work, you will by nature become quite good, and your earnings will reflect it. What's better than making a living working at your hobby??? HTH & good luck. sdlomi

I generally agree with the above posts. Let me add that here's a guy at 21 and the only mechanical experience he can point to is working on a lawnmower in shop class 3-4 years ago. People either seem to grow up with an interest in mechanics or they don't. You start acquiring tools of all sorts as a teenager or even before that. Before you have a license you are taking cars apart out of interest. By the time you're

21 the smell of grease and oil is an aphrodisiac. (Sorry, I got carried away there.) Anyway, deciding to be a mechanic through a trade school with huge outlays doesn't make sense. Get a job somewhere at any level available and see how you like it before spending money. You can take courses by mail and there are manuals to read for self help. But I predict you are just shooting at the moon to find a niche where you can make money and you are likely to miss.

Sabre,

I forgot to mention one more thing. If you are strongly thinking about being a mechanic, when you finish trade school, try to find a job with your state, county, or city/town. The benefits are far better than a dealership mechanic has. Apply to as many government jobs that you can.

I worked for a dealership when I graduated from Lincoln Tech. I got tired of the rat race and "book-time". Book-time means, if the book says it takes 1hr to replace an alternator, that is all that you will be paid for the job. If you can do it faster, great! But if it takes you 1.5 hrs., you eat the 1/2 hr. overage.

I worked for a dealer for 5 years after Lincoln Tech. I had enough of that crap. I now work for a city in Northern Illinois. At first, I had to take a small pay cut to get in on the ground level. Now (6 years later), I'm paid at top scale, and get paid an hour, for an hour worked. Below are my benefits. No dealer mechanic gets these.

Here is a short list of the benefits I get from the city:

2 weeks vacation after one year. 3 weeks/5yrs, 4 weeks/10yrs. 12 sick days per year. $400 tool upgrade allowance per year. 5 personal days off per year. Paid holidays. Overtime: 1.5X after 8 hrs. and on Saturdays. 2X on Sundays and holidays. If I work on a holiday, I get 8hrs holiday pay, plus 2X overtime pay for any hours worked. Illinois municipal retirement fund (Pension). Add this to social security, if it's there by the time I retire. Life insurance. If I pass-away, my family will get about $100,000. 100% paid family medical insurance. Supplemental life insurance ($12 per month). My family will get another $100,000 when I pass-away.

After 6 years with the city I'm at top scale. I earn $27 per hr. There are cost-of-living increases each year though. They are usually about 3%. There is no union here, nor should any mechanic in a government job need one. You have to do some major damage to get fired. As long as you show up, and do your job, it's a lifetime job.

Now for the draw-backs of this job. During the winter months, I'm on

24hr. call. They can call me at 1 A.M. when the plow trucks are rolling. I have 1 hr. to get to work. This might seem like a problem, but it's not. Any hrs. after 3:30 P.M. to 7 A.M., I'm paid at the rate of 1.5X.

Yes, I could get called to work on Xmas day, but I will get paid 8hrs. holiday, and 2X overtime for interrupting my holiday.

I hope this information gives you some direction in your pursuit of employment.

GMdude

"GMdude" wrote

Ahhh...you're just lazy.....anyone with a bit of a work ethic can make good money on flat rate...or book time as you call it.

Same here

3 sick days a year....but I haven't taken more then 3 sick days in 15 years.

Nice, but what will that buy you? One good air ratchet?

Are these paid for? If not, I can easily get 5 days off...if not more, if I wanted.

Same here.....but I get my daily average wage on these days....so instead of 27.00 per hour...it's more like 42.00 per hour.

I get overtime if they ask me to stay...but who wants to work overtime? I've got a life.

Who wants to work on a holiday? I've got a life.

You got us beat there....that's the only positive thing about a city/municipal type job.

We have these benefits too.

Me too...but when you factor in flat rate...try 42.00 dollars per hr.

Ian

But.... If you were slow, dumb and lazy you could move here and work for Uncle Sam and still make a damn good living. Grrrrr Bob

"Bob" wrote

Hey...I can do that here too. Might be an option in a few years. When the body gives out and I can't crank out the work...then I may have to go retire at the city. Whew...it will mean a big change in thinking....don't want to make the city boys look bad by being able to accomplish a fair amount in one day.

Ian

I guess a lot depends on if there's work to be done.. you've mentioned that you've only worked at dealers. I've only worked at indie shops, and we certainly have slow times. At times, _very_ slow.

Using 2000 hours a year as the multiplier, you're making in excess of $80k/year.. good for you. Are all the techs at your dealership making that? It's not the norm. I expect the norm around here is more like $30k-$40k at a dealer, less at the indie shops.

I like troubleshooting.. but it doesn't pay. Right now the shop I work at gets about 25% of it's work sublet from other shops that can't fix the problem. We are known locally as the shop that can fix the problem cars. I love the thinking it requires but Monday I start a position with the state working at a maintenance/repair shop on a research farm. I'll stay on at the indie shop as long as I can, but I can't beat the benefits the state is offering (which actually isn't saying all that much).

I could probably make more working at a dealer, but it's not the way I want to live.. it works for some people, but not for me.

Regards, Jim

"Jim" wrote

We do have slow times, but it's been fairly steady for the last

6-8 years. I happen to live in an area that's had a booming economy for what seems like forever. When it gets slow, tempers flair, and the "fairness" of how jobs are handed out get scrutinized quite closely. Even in slow times, I've always been able to average at least 8 hour a day. On the days that it's really slow, I go home early...and have a nice break.

I would say that maybe 4 other guys in the shop make about as much...and there is one or two that probably make more. But if you take a look at the work habits and knowledge of the ones that make the money....you quickly can see the reasons why they make more money. Plus, we tend to be crankier and make sure we get paid properly (grin). We also have some incentive type bonuses in place that help boost the amount of money that you can make. And we are (at this moment) one of the lowest paid (dollar per hour) dealerships in the city. But as you well know, you can be paid 40 bucks an hour...but if there is no work, or you can't make any hours, it might just as well be 25 bucks at straight time.

I won't disagree with you on this one. I'm not a driveability tech.....so I don't see the intensive type of troubleshooting that they are subjected to, but we do have to deal with some problems on the general side. Obviously, money is made on the repetitive type of work that you can get very good at.

I hear you. Some techs are not cut out for the dealership atmosphere. I'm not sure what it is exactly that you wouldn't like about it, but it is quite possible to do good honest work and make good money too at the dealership level.

Ian

Heading out of town till Sunday.. reply when I get back. Basically, the dealership issue with me would be, as you mentioned, doing the same jobs over and over pays best (because you still remember exactly how do to it), but it's boring and boredom and me don't mix well, and well, I like troubleshooting. And it doesn't pay.

Regards,

Jim

Shiden_kai,

Lazy? Why are you flaming me? I was giving the kid some info on options. There are a couple more benefits to a municipal job over a dealership. The municipality I work for will still be there, long after your dealership has gone out of business. With the economy the way it's going, that could be tomorrow. Another benefit is longevity pay. It's a bonus check at the end of each fiscal year after 10 yrs. In the 11th year, it's 2.5% of my annual base pay (% increases each year). There is one guy I work with that has been with the city 25 yrs. He currently gets a check for $6000. I didn't switch to a municipal job out of laziness. I switched because I have a family to provide for, and wanted the job security. Being smart, and thinking of the family.

I'm a civil servant. Which means that, when you are nice and snuggled up to your pillow, I'm making sure that all the salt trucks, water/sewer dept. trucks, fire engines, ambulances, and police cars stay on the road, so you can have a safe trip to work when you wake up. Again, ... LAZY? No,... I show up for work when I'm called. You said: "Who wants to work on a holiday". You figure out what lazy is. If I were lazy, you or a family member could die. I'm paid by the people through tax dollars, and I make sure that the fire truck or ambulance can get to your home.

When you become a civil servant, you sign a paper, and make a promise to be at work when you are needed. Yes, I'm compensated well for it.

As a civil servant, I'm not protected by any automotive union which breeds laziness. If I don't do my job, I could be put before a panel of 8 people, and be discharged at the end of the meeting. I can have an attorney present, though. There would be no need for that. I do my job, and I do it well. I have no safety net. All I have is the guarantee that I will be treated fairly.

At the dealership I worked at before the city, I saw a new guy get fired on his first day. The service manager hired a mechanic for the used car dept. The guy was unloading his toolbox in the driveway to the side of the building. The owner of the dealership came walking up and said, "What are you doing blocking the driveway!". He said, "I'm just unloading my toolbox. I start work here today". The owner said, "NO,... your fired!". The service manager just lowered and shook his head with disgust. The job is only as good as the dealership owner. I had to work for this tyrant 6 years!

It's great if you get good benefits where you work. Most dealerships are not like that. They only work within union guidelines, and provide the bare minimum to the mechanics.

And yes, I do get the 5 personal days paid. All of the days I stated previously are paid. Your claims of matching my benefits are questionable. I have never found a dealership that offers as many benefits as the city. I also am off today, the day after Thanksgiving. You might be at work, so I will look for your response in the evening.

GMdude

P.S. I've been giving info to many persons that seek it on this group over the past years. I have even backed you up on many of your responses. So, ... why the hostility? I'm just giving a young mind a good option for employment. He can advance to other position in a government job. The best one could do at a dealership, is what, Service manager? There was a bus driver at the city that is now a councilman. The city pays for continuing education, as long as you apply yourself. You must maintain a 3.0 average to get compensated for school.