RWD stick shift "family" car... and fairly recent?

according to wiki... the 626 was rwd in 1982... a little older than the

5 year window I was hoping to work in :)
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No stick shift on the Crown Victoria any more? That's sad. I'd think the law enforcement guys would at least be requiring a few of those.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Good grief! I don't think the LTD/Crown Victoria was EVER available with a stick. At least not since the very different "Crown Victoria" of the

50s, and definitely not since the current cop-car Crown Vic family got started in the late 70s.
Reply to
Steve

Volvo 700 or 900 series. You can also find estates with an extra pair of fold-up rear-facing kid seats, good for smaller kids. The 800 are nice enough, but they're FWD and smaller than a 700 inside.

Otherwise you're looking at Beemers if you want RWD. They're like walking into a garage with a sign on your back saying "Kick me". Surprisingly small inside too.

Mine's a 740 2l, 17 years old with about 250k miles on it. Just had to fit a new exhaust to it -- first maintenance money its cost me in over a year.

Reply to
dingbat

Ray,

One more sorta-kinda option: the VW Passat is available in AWD, in a wagon or sedan. Unfortunately in the US we only get the V6/Auto combo, but otherwise it's a good-sized car and has a generally reliable drivetrain. It's a VW, so you will have to deal with sensor problems and such, but if you get a good mechanic it's more an annoyance than a real problem; I'd say less annoying than owning a BMW. I think the W8 was also available in 4Motion, but again only an auto. In Canada they got the 1.8T with the 4Motion - chiptune that and it's a great engine/trans combo, quick and responsive with only the slightest hint of turbo lag, and you can break 30MPG without thinking about it on the highway.

But more directly: The Audi A4 is available in a stick and AWD with a variety of engine choices. I really like the 1.8T with chiptuning, but there's also a V6 that's very smooth and easy to drive. An '02 or '03 should meet your price target, and if you hunt for a bit will have a decent chunk of factory warranty left to cover any hidden bugaboos.

As with all VW vehicles, get a detailed service history. The good ones are good ones, the bad ones are no fun.

-Keith

Reply to
Keith Jewell

been in a couple of Passats, they just didn't "impress" me.

I'm actually going to look at an 02 Subaru Legacy wagon with a stick after work... might be promising. :)

Reply to
ray

Why not. It is far more useful in snow. There are no inexpensive rear wheel drive wagons made that I'm aware of. Up the price scale are the tiny BMW and Mercedes wagons. To be honest the rear seating and storage space are quite limiting in those vehicles. By the time you get anything decent sized it will be on the high side of $50k.

Why not. It is reliable, safe and economical. Unfortunately they don't make a wagon as such. The Highlander could be thought of as a high standing wagon I suppose. But it doesn't come with a stick shift. The automatic works quite well though.

Not sure if you live in snow country or not. But if you do I would look at the Subaru Outback.

Reply to
John S.

John, I'm a bit different than your usual driver. :) I live in Manitoba, where we get a foot of snow in the winter, and it falls to -40 for a week straight. That alone makes me different... but I can't talk the wife into moving to Florida.

Anyway, I don't like fwd. Even in snow. I drove an 02 Legacy Wagon today and I think I may have found something I can like. It's got awd for the snow.

And frankly, the whole fwd traction in snow thing is kind of a joke. In Winnipeg, it gets cold, and we get snow, but for maybe two weeks out of the whole winter the roads are "snow covered" and then it's just frickin' cold with the odd patch of ice or a side street that's poorly plowed and rutted. The rest of the winter you're stuck with a funny handling fwd plow. (understeer) :)

My other cars are a Trans Am, and a Camaro dirt track race car. I don't belong in a Camry. I can't do boring cars. Either cheap beaters, or something fun. Beaters are never boring. ;)

The Legacy is the "lowered" version of the Outback, and I drove one today and think I enjoyed it, which is more than I can say for most of the stuff I drove so far.

Ray

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news

AWD is one step up from FWD which in turn is a huge step up from RWD.

Not in my experience in snow. FWD gets cars moving easier in snow.

The steering on any sedan is predicable in normal driving conditions. I don't understand why if you are driving within speed limits that over or understeer would be much of an issue anyway.

It would have been very helpful to know what your real requirements were in the first message you posted here. Your real requirements have very little to do with good traction, safe handling and reliability. Your real requirements seem to be those of a 17 year old.

Ah, but it has FWD and RWD. I thought FWD was a no no.

Reply to
John S.

oh ffs, John. There's more to life than driving a boring shitbox transportation appliance all the time. I was trying to avoid having to buy one. Not too many transportation appliances with the drivetrain layout I was considering. I enjoy driving. I practice driving so that I can become a better driver - not just fast, but a more patient, skilled, smoother driver. I view learning to drive as a journey, not as a destination.

Learning to drive is a deadly serious business - ever been in a car doing 60mph that hits a chunk of ice on a bump and gotten right sideways? I have. Drove out of it. I'm not the world's greatest driver, but the standard response would apparently be to scream and let go of the wheel. If you have to think about this sentence "steer into the skid" and what it means, you've already crashed.

In the winter, over and understeer are a huge issue - I've been "out of control" and understeering or oversteering (or both) at speeds of 5mph here in the winter trying to take a yield. with most FWD cars, your only recourse is to slide into whatever unless you can jack the ebrake to rotate the car and use the gas to pull yourself around the corner. The wife's Beretta is actually not to bad for this - run 25psi in the fronts, 32 in the rears and it will actually be pretty neutral in the winter to slightly loose.

Also, I prefer active safety (big brakes, big tires, good suspension) to passive safety (crumple zones, air bombs) because I'd rather AVOID the wreck. My Trans Am saved me from whacking a deer at 75mph in Montana a couple of years ago - the semi in front of me clipped it and it came flying across the highway, in a Camry we would not have had the brakes and steering to avoid it. We actually had to stop within 5 miles because I was shaking that bad.

That said, I'm a sucker for fast. I'd rather own a 500hp Chevette than a 90hp Ferrari. I've been trying to justify a WRX as a family car, but not having a lot of luck when for the same price I can buy an Intrepid AND a Neon. On my race car, I clipped a Mustang one race and got 4 wheel air... and then got faster on the race track... so I guess I am 17 inside... Dukes of Hazzard baby!!!! :)

FWD sucks. Always has, always will. Better acceleration from a dead stop on bare ice is it's ONLY "saving grace." I work on my own cars - FWD is NOT easier to service. FWD does not handle better in the real world - and we're not talking about 100mph onramps, we're talking about the fact that FWD suffers from terminal understeer, which means your only choice is to slide into the ditch frontwards. At least with a rwd car, you can maybe use the gas to rotate the car and make the corner, or slide into the ditch backwards.

I'm also totally biased because I work on my own cars - no Fords, no Kias, no Hyundais.

There, are you happy now? You can go ahead and feel superior driving to work in your Toyota Camry now, I don't care. I drove a Subary Legacy yesterday and liked it for a family car. Yes, it's awd, which is nice for the winter - you get the benefits of both fwd and rwd. The disadvantage is you get the drawbacks of both, plus extra weight and lousy fuel economy too.

If you'd like to debate fwd vs rwd all day long, fine, but show me a "top" racing series (NASCAR, F1, CART, IRL, etc...) that uses FWD. List me all the companies that make "driver's cars" that are FWD (BMW, Porsche, Ferrari.) :)

Ray

Reply to
ray

No way do I consider FWD a step up from anything, except maybe a bicycle. Yes, I own an FWD (and 3 RWDs). It drives like an FWD, too (that is to say, it understeers like a dumptruck, and torque-steers wildly on hard acceleration on anything but dry pavement). Its very roomy, flat-floored, smallish on the outside for the amount of interior room, and comfortable- those are the only reasons for the success of FWD. It all comes down to packaging. Even the very best-handling FWDs can be whooped by a mediocre-handling RWD, and they're absolute hell to work on.

Reply to
Steve

I think I like this guy.... ;-)

Except for me its "no Asian imports." Period.

Reply to
Steve

I should have known the discussion would head this way. You ask an open ended question but every time someone comes up with an idea you begin throwing in all these restrictions and limitations. Just be up front in your question about what you really want in a car. Safe reliable family transportation is what most people would read into your original message. After this long exchange it turns out you want little more than an overpowered boys toy that also might have enough room to squeeze a few family members into. Since you apparently have a family I would have thought that safe, reliable, easy to drive for the wife, etc. would be principal criteria. Alas that is not the case.

ray wrote:

Reply to
John S.

Yes, yes I know how the old ways can always seem better. Solid beam suspension with leaf springs, un-assisted steering and brakes, manual transmission, hand crank windows, rear wheel drive would make a real mans car. For some real driving pleasure why not revert to mechanical brakes too.

Reply to
John S.

My first car was a Honda motorcycle, I had one 63 Volvo project car/nightmare, otherwise it's RWD GMs and Dodges. I really want a 4 door Trans Am as my next car, but $40k Canadian for a hemi powered Charger or Magnum is just too much money for what I'm looking to spend. My blood runs Chevy orange, but the reality is that 01-05 GM products are all fwd, a lot of them are crap, and I don't want a truck or SUV - I owned a Jimmy - nice in 2 feet of snow, but drives like a truck... and my truck is a truck, which means it's only a regular cab and gets 10mpg.

I love cars, I hate cars. :)

Reply to
ray

I tried. I really really tried. I looked at (and/or drove) a Civic, a Neon, a Charger, an Intrepid, an Altima, a Grand Prix, a Venture, a Caravan, a Blazer, an Envoy, a Protege5, a Sebring, a Magnum, an Impreza, a Legacy, a Diplomat, a Grand Cherokee, a Sentra, a Versa, a Malibu, a Caliber, a Mazda3, an RX8, and a Jeep TJ.

I've got quite the spreadsheet going, and the "top 5" so far are: Legacy, Protege5, Sebring, Neon, Intrepid. yes, 4 of the 5 are fwd. The Camry comes in 6th in my own arbitrary "scoring" system, which doesn't give points for powertrain.

(points for price, newness, 0-60, 60-0, handling, comfort, space, fuel efficiency and *cost to insure.)

The reality is pretty much ANY of those cars would fit my NEED. However, once your NEED is met, how about fulfilling some of the want side of the equation? I drove a GTP Grand Prix - good in a straight line, but the interiors of the ones I looked at were ALL falling apart. The Diplomat was just too old for the wife to consider even if it was way cheaper than the rest. The SUVs all get crappy fuel mileage, the Jeep has zero cargo space, and the Hemi powered ones are too expensive. that's when I realized I was looking for a rear wheel drive stick shift 4 door and can't seem to find one.

My wife is behind me about 80% on this... she won't even consider a minivan - she won't even sit in one. She grew up on the farm driving a

3/4 ton diesel truck, and currently loads a babyseat into her 2 door Beretta without complaint.

I was honestly hoping to find something that would win me over in a transportation appliance, but it's just not happening. Trust me, in the past I wouldn't have even bothered looking at a Camry. I tried to like it, but I didn't.

This post hasn't been a total loss though, I was reminded about the Subarus, and didn't realize the Infiniti G35 might be in my price range with a powertrain layout that I like. I am still going to look at Honda Accords and the like "just in case" but so far they just don't do it for me.

*btw, that's a big factor - the Legacy costs almost $500 LESS a year to insure than an Envoy of the same vintage.

Ray

Reply to
ray

Hmm... then how come BMW never went FWD except for the Mini? And count all the FWD Porsches. Even Honda's top of the line car... Acura NSX... not FWD. DaimlerChrysler is going back to RWD...

FWD is better under certain circumstances, as are manual brakes, manual transmissions, hand crank windows, and solid axles with leaf springs.

Manual brakes - better if you have a car that stalls a lot. ;) Manual transmissions - you get them or you don't. Hand crank windows - don't freeze shut in -40. Solid axles with leaf springs - heavy duty trucks. Even the imports.

You probably think the Honda Ridgeline is a truck. ;)

Ray

Reply to
ray

Have no idea, but there are plenty of stick-in-the-muds out there. Toyota has one rwd car, the Lexus GS.

One can count a couple of fingers the few remaining car brands that are exclusively rwd. The number of car makers that have brought themselves forward into the 21st century by switching from RWD to front wheel drive is of course as we all know quite large. Most of the number of cars made today are fwd.

A bit player in comparison to the big players in the automotive market.

A minor, tiny portion of their production.

Hmm...how many Chrysers are rwd.

I said mechanical brakes, which went out during the depression.

You get them if you pay extra. Purposeless considering how efficient auto transmissions are.

Sure they do. Moisture on the linkage or around the window will freeze them.

On passenger cars, which was the original thread?

Have no idea what a ridgeline is, but pickup trucks have little utility for me any more. Sounds like trucks with big wheels, fancy names, rows of cab lights and all that other stuff get you really excited.

The F250 I owned with an 8100 gvw suspension was fine for carrying lots of heavy stuff, but empty it rode like a proverbial lumber truck. Most pickups tend to pitch and dive when empty because they are set up for carrying stuff.

Reply to
John S.

It's called balance. FWD doesn't have any with all the weight hanging over the nose.

Which has to everything do with packaging costs of the powertrain. the companies that are RWD are usually enthusiast brands.

My point is that car companies like Porsche, Ferrari, etc... are RWD. Even Honda's fanciest car is RWD. Why is that? It's not just for status.

fwd Dodge/Chryslers: pacifica, pt cruiser, caravan, sebring, caliber. rwd Dodge/Chryslers: 300/charger/magnum, crossfire,

I believe the pacifica, caravan and caliber are available with awd, leaving the PT and the Sebring as the only Chryslers not possibly powering the rear wheels.

And if you're talking sales #s... then all the people who drive trucks and SUVs should tell you something... there's got to be a few of them who converted so they didn't have to get a fwd car. I did, but I much prefer cars over trucks for on road vehicle dynamics (braking, steering, etc...)

My mistake. The park brake on your car is still mechanical and can be used in a situation where you lose hydraulic pressure. I'm not always in favor of OLD... I'm a computer guy, I like new... carbs vs FI... I'm an FI guy... but newer isn't always better for everything.

CVTs are even better. And good luck push starting your auto. The irony here for me is in the typical 4 cyl fwd application of a car like a Honda Civic that has no torque, a stick shift is waaaaay faster and way more peppy, especially off the line.

Never ever had a manual window motor burn out on me.

I believe that trucks are trucks. My truck is a 90 Chev that was my father-in-law's farm truck. 350/5spd/4wd. No A/C, no carpet. No power windows, no power locks. We use it to carry race car parts around, go to home depot, move people, etc... it's a dumb commuter vehicle at

10mpg, but unless I buy another car I'm going to need to use it this winter as one. PS- the Ridgeline is Honda's "truck"... it's like the Honda Minivan ElCamino. Think a 3/4 scale Avalanche.

I'm not looking to fight about this. You can drive your Camry and completely care nothing about driving and be happy about that, I'm not interested in that. :)

I can drive an old fart car when I'm an old fart. That's probably going to be about two weeks before I have to hand over my license because I'm

100 and can't drive anymore.

Ray

Reply to
ray

Yes, and rear wheel cars have such great balance thet they are notoriously poor performers in the snow.

What in heavens name is an enthusiast brand.

Reply to
John S.

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