I believe that is true, and I have been told that a few particular filter types (IIRC the severe duty V10 filter, and the filters for the Cummins, of course) never did change.
But when I learned how the line is *subject* to change, I quit even looking at them.
Do you work for the government, possibly the DoD?
OK, I think we may be getting somewhere. As an automotive enthusiast what specific standards are you setting for filters. What requirements for filtration, capacity, sealing, etc., do you expect from an oil or air filter.
I recently thought my engine was getting tired due to the new valve train noise that started happening at start up. It sounded like empty hydraulic lifters rattling/ clacking like mad.
So it came time to do the next oil change and I tossed the Fram oil filter in the garbage and went with another brand and 100% of the startup noise went away!!
This is on a Jeep 258 engine.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
That the brand I buy not have bitten me in the rod bearings repeatedly in the past. That the brand I buy AT LEAST have an internal structure that is not visibly inferior and likely prone to collapse (eg. has metal end caps on the filter medium. That the brand I buy have a reliable bypass spring design. That the brand I buy have a good anti drain-back valve material and design.
Quite honestly, I don't think filtration is an issue. WHEN any mainstream design oil filter works, it filters OK. Its when the medium collapses that its a problem, or when the ADBV leaks down so that the engine is slow to build oil pressure on restart. For air filters, I just demand that there be no visible openings between the filter media and sealing grommets (I've seen that on some 'house brand' air filters) and I want "paper" (tight-woven dry fiber) filter media instead of oiled cotton or oiled foam.
I'm not REALLY being all that demanding!
you forgot about "oil filters that don't blow apart if you forget and wind it out while the oil is still cold." I've heard of a few instances of that happening, usually at an autocross, usually in a watercooled VW (which do develop some monster oil pressures when cold) and usually involving the Orange Canister of Death. Of course this one *hasn't* happened to me, so I am filing it under "anecdotal" although I'm already prejudiced against that particular product. And, of course, Mann or Mahle brand filters are the same price if I order them through one of the aftermarket mail-order places at the same time that I'm ordering other parts.
nate
. Now, if I were a Fram engineer I *would* apply rigorous scientific
Fram and all other filter manufacturers probably DO apply statistical analysis to their product failure rates.
Quality control deals heavily in statistical analysis of specifications and failure. This would constitute real evidence if we could get our hands on manufacturers data.
Only by the use of large scale data evaluation can you really get an idea of how good or bad one product is versus another.
The occasional anecdotal account is interesting but means nothing statistically.
As a consumer, I switched from *Fram too, only because I 'smelled smoke', and chose not to trust Fram any longer. But I dont KNOW that they are bad products.
No. It would only tell us how often Fram's filters met fram's spec.
You can make absolute crap for a product and be ISO9001 if all the paperwork and processes match up and are done per spec.
Quality control is to ensure what is manufactured meets spec. A bad design that does not perform well won't be detected in QC.
Agreed, ISO does not guarantee quality...it promotes repeatability, traceability which are important tools in developing quality.'
You can continue to make crap as long as you make it consistently. But ISO also has a requirement for continuous improvement.
Read what I said again. 'statistical analysis of quality AND FAILURES'. Every company which makes products experiences failures. And those failures can be analyzed and reported rather unambiguously. Is the failure rate for Fram significantly greater than for Wix? I have no idea, and doubt that you do either. This data would be of use, but it is not data that companies like to put out for comparison.
As far as repeatability, if you cannot reproduce your results, you can pretty much assume that quality is substandard.
And I suspect both you and I would really like to see comparison data of this type
Yes I read it. The lack of oil pressure on start up might not be considered a failure. 'it's not a bug, it's a feature!'
Generally are not... but those are stories for another time ;)
What is a failure? What's a failure for Wix, What's a failure for Fram? I'll wager they are two very different things.
And would likely be comparing apples to oranges.
Actually, I would like to see the internal testing requirements and in house design standards. First, we need to know who is even attempting to design and build a good product, then we can worry about who puts one out the door consistantly.
My guess is that the standards a wix filter has to pass in house are much tougher than those a fram filter has to pass in house.
Yes, it probably is. But not for the reason you might think. The reason the Fram is more likely to fail is that it does a better job of filtering. When you have an engine that has been driven for a 100K and had an oil change with Wix filter every 4-5K and at that point you change the oil and put on a Fram you are indeed risking major engine problems. If you actually do try this experiment I recommend you remove the Fram filter after about a 100 miles of driving. At that point you will notice that it weighs about 50 lbs. That should give you a clue as to what's going.
-jim
I have no idea, and doubt that you do either. This
If you set out to write a post with as many stated facts wrong as possible, you really couldn't do any better than Jim just did...
If that was an attempt to illustrate how to post without any facts at all it was well done :^}
I submit that if the folks in this thread who have complained that they get low oil pressure when using a fram filter had any brains they would turn the engine off and unscrew the oil filter and feel how heavy it was. Then they wouldn't have any trouble understanding why there oil pressure is inadequate.
-jim
The day after the installation of the Fram filter?
This [supposed] superior filtering ability isn't going to work in a day, which is exactly how long it takes to realize that the Fram filter is draining back overnight.
If you're implying that the Fram is so superior in its filtering ability that it will plug immediately, I offer that the bypass valve should open in that case and therefore no loss in oil pressure should be detected. I don't buy that explanation.
nate
(never had these issues with a Canton/Mecca filter either... are you telling me that Fram is superior to C/M? I *certainly* don't buy that.)
If you are implying that no loss of oil pressure to the engine accompanies a plugged filter - you don't know what you are talking about. In fact the symptoms of a plugged or severely restricted filter are exactly identical to the symptoms various people have described in this thread. The bypass does not supply full flow and pressure to the engine.
I'm not saying there is a huge difference in the filtering capability of a fram filter and others. But a tiny difference over many tens of thousands of miles does have an accumulated affect. There are many cars on the road today where you can change the oil and filter and drive it
10 miles and check the oil and the new oil has already turned black. Crud does accumulate in engines, particularly with the relatively long oil change periods that many of the manufacturers are now recommending. If you look at the published data for the filtering capability of different oil filters, Fram filters rate near the top for removal of the tiniest particles. Given the above facts, it isn't too hard to imagine a scenario where someone puts a fram filter on and it gets plugged in a hurry. All I know is when I read descriptions of symptoms that sound to me like a plugged oil filter I think - maybe you got a plugged filter?-jim
I had an issue recently with a lot of valve train noise upon cold starts and a delay in my 'mechanical' oil pressure gauge before it came up to pressure. I was just thinking the engine was getting old and tired...
I recently also read about fram filters and sure enough, that's what I put on. I changed the oil and put on a different brand filter and 'all' the startup noise went away and my pressure comes up instantly now.
I was amazed at the difference because I was already eyeballing a spare engine I have thinking it's time to start a re + re on it. Now I figure I have time to wait...
This filter wasn't plugged, it just let all the oil drain out of the engine when it sat. Garbage in my mind.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
I know fleet mechanics ( I used to be one) that have put thousands of fram filters on vehicles and never had a single problem like you describe. You come along and don't even know what type of filter you have on your vehicle but you are certain it wasn't plugged. Well OK, that was certainly convincing.
-jim
I change my oil regularly and had only 2 or 3 months on that filter.
I normally buy the brand that's on sale at Canadian Tire, not a certain one. When I was reading about the fram filters I remembered the one I put on was orange so went and looked at the name. Sure enough, it was a Fram.
The mechanical oil pressure gauge was reading proper pressure at speed and at idle, so I sure didn't think it was plugged...
I still have it out in the garage as far as I know, would you like me to go take a digital photo of it?
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
I have been doing 6-7K mile oil changes with mobil 1 and motorcraft filters in my car for 146K miles and nearly 10 years. The oil just starts getting dark on the dipstick when it's time to change it.
In exchange for a death rattle on start up...
I sumbit that a new filter shouldn't be a seal. And you are apparently arguing that the fram filter isn't letting oil through from brand new. Not exactly what I want in a filter. Maybe I can sell a hunk of rubber as an airfilter.... no particulates get through!
Wouldn't most drivers of 'fleet' vehicles would just let a rattle be... it's not their vehicle.
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