So what's wrong with the Airhog filters? was:Re: Airhog filters almost free after Fram's rebate

That's correct, because you don't know what is in the manufacturer-branded box until you open it. Which is what Steve said.

The fact that you don't recognize the evidence or reasoning given doesn't mean that it's not a valid criterion. In this instance I agree with Steve that Wix and Purolator filters have been of apparent consistent high quality for years, therefore buying a Wix or Purolator branded filter is a reasonable assurance of quality. This is not always true of manufacturer-branded filters, which have been in some cases rebranded Frams. Whether or not you agree, there is good evidence that Frams have not been consistently high quality products.

I can't imagine why someone would make a statement like that. Of course I always attempt to use the highest quality parts that I can on my car, within some financial constraints.

It does, however, show that OEM filters are not always made by the same manufacturer, even for the same part number. I'd rather know what's in the box I'm ordering.

Again, I've heard enough anecdotal evidence about how Frams perform in the real world that I don't want to take the chance of having one on any of my engines (more pertinent to oil filters than to the original subject of air filters, however.) I've had personal experience with faulty Frams (nonfunctional ADBVs) that predispose me to not choose them. I wouldn't want to pay a premium to buy an OEM part just to find that it's the same crap that I've had bad experiences with in the past, when Wix filters have always performed flawlessly for me and many others.

nate

And that minimum performance can actually be quite high. As I recall from the various disections of filters, motorcraft filters appeared to be Purolator and mopar wix.

In the torqueless wonder car I used pep-boys house brand filters because for that engine, the filter was a rebranded purolator. Right down to the stamping marks the tooled pieces were identical.

FYI: pep boys house brand oil filters appeared to come from various mfgr's depending on application. Just my observation, make your own before trying.

Admittedly, it tends to make on nervous. I have used Frams and have NEVER had an incident. But, you really dont want and need an incident.

Agreed. I haven't had any of the catastrophic can-blowing-apart-at-the-crimp failures of legend, but still, when one brand has a bad ADBV and one has a good one, you buy the good one.

nate

As I have said over and over all this group is doing is repeating anecdotes with little solid evidence to base their proclamations of product quality on. It's like the guy that puts a half-cup of oil enhancer in with every oil change and proclaims that Motor Honey (or some other product) Did It Again because my engine has been running for xx years. If you are a true believer then I'm sure the lack of facts won't get in the way.

manufacturers also

Well, if every time I see a slant six that rattles and knocks and keeps its oil light on for 5+ seconds after a cold start it has a Fram installed, and if on each car I change the oil and filter using a Wix filter and it stops doing that, in the future, what brand filter would you recommend that I use? Fram or Wix?

nate

The issue is that it's entirely possible that the issues would have gone away even if you'd have replaced the filter with another Fram. That is, the fresh oil and any fresh filter would have helped.

Much as I dislike Fram filters, I haven't seen any good numbers on the things either. So I'm not going to flat out say they're all no good, even though I might avoid buying them myself.

--scott

Agree with you totally on the value of anecdotal evidence. Wish we had better factual evidence.

wouldn't that depend if you were the owner or someone who sells slant six bearings for a living? ;)

manufacturers also

Given that it is your hypothetical anecdote and you are in complete control of the "facts" presented therein a recommendation would serve no purpose whatsoever. Or more directly I really don't give a damn what you put in your car. All I am saying is that before you proclaim to one and all that brand XX is the best filter while brand YY is the worst filter you should have some good solid facts to back up that recommendation. Something beyond a simple it is so because you say it is.

Anecdotes and myths get repeated so often in small groups like this that they take on the status of Euclidian postulates and are never questioned. It is really worth taking the time to think about what gets repeated over and over.

Mythbusters could have a ball with this subject!!

It's not a hypothetical anecdote. Those are my personal experiences.

And that's what I've given. Several different similar engines, all experiencing delayed building of oil pressure on a cold start, mysteriously stop doing so when changing from a Fram filter to a Wix filter. If that doesn't convince you that Fram is inferior to Wix, at least in that one application, I don't know what will. Catastrophic engine failure, maybe?

I guess I must just be incapable of making valid observations, then. Who is qualified to do so? Not that I really care one way or another what you think, *I* am convinced that I would be doing people a disservice by recommending any Fram product based on my repeated observations that they are inferior to other aftermarket products.

nate

I think the Motorcrafts were Champion Labs, but that's also a good brand. But the trigger that launched the wole filter debate in the Mopar community years ago was the discovery that Mopar had switched from sourcing Wix filters to sourcing Fram filters in their supply chain. This was circa 1994 or thereabout as I recall. Some people say there is "no" evidence that Frams are a problem, but the reason people even

*noticed* that Mopar had switched was because a large number of internet-connected gearheads started noticing a lot of valve racket and persistent oil pressure warning lights on startup, which directly correlate with Fram's poor anti-drainback valve design... which was EXACTLY why they'd been buying Mopar-branded filters in the first place!

Maybe John S. thinks I'm just obsessive-compulsive, but I'm sorry- once bitten, twice shy. A little OC disorder can be a good thing, anyway :-)

EXACTLY. There is no need to apply rigorous scientific method when there is sufficient observed evidence to establish a very strong correlation. And while the slant-6 is the toughest test case because of its upside-down oil filter, I have noticed the same behavior on a 318 and a

383 when, periodically over a 20 year period, I have used Fram filter on them. Now, if I were a Fram engineer I *would* apply rigorous scientific method to see why my filters were behaving that way. But as a consumer, I just switch brands.

John, as a professional research engineer of 20 years experience, I tend to agree with your statemenst above entirely. BUT, when I note that I

*personally* have experienced the long delays on initial oil pressure with *one* brand of filter virtually every single time I use one over a 30 year period.... well, the simple thing to do is just not buy it. And then when I start seeing widespread reports of the SAME THING by other car owners, I am further persuaded that there is more to it than simple anecdotal evidence. THEN, when someone takes the trouble to cut a bunch of filters open and do some "comparative anatomy," that adds further weight. No, the "comparative anatomy" isn't scientific, it isn't conclusive, and it isn't sufficient in and of itself. But when combined with the "anecdotal" evidence, a very strong pattern develops.

At this point, I have to ask if its worth my time and effort to CONCLUSIVELY condemn Fram, or just punt the ball. That is to say pay the extra few dollars for a different brand that doesn't have such a trail of circumstantial evidence following it around.

And that's the whole root of why I do avoid dealer parts for things like filters. Since they are *known* (not just by me, its admitted industry-wide) to change suppliers periodically, I run the risk of getting that one filter brand that has repeatedly caused me trouble.

You can take that, or leave it... but to insinuate that I'm claiming some mysterious inside knowledge about how dealer parts supply chains work is just asinine. I'm just stating OBSERVED facts and drawing a conclusion. Disagree with the conclusion if you want- that doesn't bother me- but don't put words in my mouth.

That's what I was trying to say, and what I assumed you were saying all along.

Let's take it a step farther... let's say that I was a professional mechanic. (I'm not, don't worry.) Let's say that I had a customer that had, say, a '65 Dart that he'd been taking to me for oil changes for years. One day, it up and throws a rod. This guy knows that a slant six is a strong engine and shouldn't just throw rods. He gets online, starts poking around, and sees that I've posted to RAT noting that I've noticed faulty ADBV's in Fram filters. But wait, he says, this same guy has been installing Fram filters on my car for years!

Do you think that the fact that my "evidence" is "anecdotal" is going to make the customer any less pissed off at me? If he's pissed off enough to take me to court, do you think that the judge is going to accept my argument that "well, my postings were just anecdotal evidence and shouldn't be used to make purchasing decisions; Frams should meet all of the manufacturer's specifications?"

Or, given the overwhelming number of anecdotes about the shitteaux nature of Frams, would you be willing to put one on YOUR car, given that there are other major brands readily available and comparably priced, that do NOT have the same stories told about them? In a pinch, maybe, but as a regular practice, I sure wouldn't. It was a happy day for me when my local independant FLAPS switched from Fram to Wix. IMHO, all filters are NOT created equal, which was the whole point of this thread.

To address the point of this particular sub-thread, since it would appear that OEM-labeled filters seem to change suppliers far more often than the major aftermarket brands the chances of getting an unknown, or worse, known to be less desirable part are actually greater with the OEM-branded filters. I don't enjoy paying a premium at a dealer for an unknown quantity when I can get a known quantity at my FLAPS.

nate

If there were corroborated reports of several different incidents then I would agree. Unfortunately the same story can as we all know get repeated over and over on the internet and the problem can look to be huge when it isn't.

As with most other automotive accesories most of us don't have the time, resources or inclination to investigate and test the technical features of automotive components and determine who actually manufactured a given component. An automotive manufacturer is in a much better position to make that assessment than an internet discussion forum.

There are. Steve's and mine, for starters.

What if it really is huge and you're just sticking your fingers in your ears?

Exactly. Therefore I buy a brand where I don't have to do that research.

They may be in a better position to make that assessment, but they also use different criteria for selecting a supplier than an end user. Cost is far more important to them than quality. (That said, I believe that MoPar has switched from Fram in the filters that Steve was mentioning earlier, so maybe there is some hope.)

nate

I would agree... IF:

1) I hadn't observed the drainback problem repeatedly. Once- I could write that off to a bad filter and go on. But CONSISTENTLY when I use Fram filters? Warning light goes on.

2) I hadn't seen the obviously weaker internals of Fram filters

3) I hadn't heard the same reports from so many conscientious auto enthusiasts who don't go off half-cocked claiming the wonders of Dr. Mojos Miracle Motor Medicine left and right.

Now I ask you- would I be intellectually honest if I DIDN'T point out my conclusions after years of observation here? I have nothing to gain or lose. I'm not a mechanic, I don't work for Fram, Champion Labs, Wix, Purolator, or ANY company associated with auto parts, auto manufacture, or auto repair. I'm just a car nut who also has a couple of engineering degrees and a curious nature.

Not really, because the auto manufacturer will at least consider taking the lowest bid, and depending on what solicitation process they use they will open themselves to legal action if they DON'T take the lowest bid that claims to meet specs unless they a lot more money to PROVE that the specs aren't met. Trust me, in my job I have to buy a lot of components that go into stuff that gets my employer's name on it, and sometimes I am forced by the system to take a vendor whose product I *know* is inferior, but PROVING the inferiority sufficiently to prevent my employer from being sued by a disgruntled vendor costs far far more than gritting my teeth and swallowing the added overhead of dealing with failures of the inferior part. I sometimes spend hours crafting bid requests that will somehow exclude *every* inferior vendor, but they still slip through and have to be considered. Asinine? Yes. Fact of life? YES.

We as enthusiasts can set the standard far, far higher and can be far more discriminating than the auto maker.