You have a "flex fuel" engine - which is tuned to be able to take advantage of the extra octane in E85 so you will not notice as severe a degradation in economy, and you will experience somewhat enhanced performance on E85.
A NON FLEXFUEL engine cannot take advantage of the higher octane, and cannot compensate for the high ethanol content, and therefore does not run very well at all on E85, and suffers dramatically in both power and economy.
** Posted from
You are a very lucky man indeed
Gunner
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core, and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
As far as I know EPA doesn't test for E10 mileage. And car manufacturers advertise what the EPA estimates for mileage. So who is slinging the BS? Where's yo ur evidence
for "They 'all' claim less mileage"? It's been more than 20 years ago that all manufacturer's declared their vehicles run fine on E10 fuel, but it is only very recently that people are beginning to be concerned because of rising prices. If you have been paying attention to car ads very few of them emphasize fuel economy in the last 20 years. But that is goin g to change and consumers are going to be buying cars that burn the available fuel ef ficiently.
I get better mileage with ethanol blends so do many other people. And if you looked at the research we were discussing all the cars in that study did see som e improved mileage at some mix level. That studied also showed some small loss of mi leage at other mix levels. The fact is that alcohol doesn't make much difference a t all and you shouldn't be seeing any significant loss in mileage in a well running vehicle. But It doesn't bother me you think you are losing mileage. The fact is yo u don't really even know what the fuel content is of the stuff you put in your ta nk. Your belief that you are losing mileage may well be just an irrational bogey m an belief.
Do you have something besides BS to support your position?
As far as I can tell the ethanol industry does not say you will lose mile age with gasohol. That is BS. Here is what they really say:
Critics of ethanol often allege that because ethanol contains less energy than pure gasoline, ethanol-blended fuel has a negative impact on gas mileage, In reality, variables such as speed, tire pressure, and weather?s effect o n driving conditions have a much greater impact on fuel economy than the fuel used in engines. On the other hand, ethanol is an oxygenated fuel that has the ability to improve combustion efficiency in many vehicles. For most vehicles, this increased
efficiency offsets the slightly lower energy content in gasohol. Besides, ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline. With a 113 octane rating, ethan ol is the highest performance fuel on the market
Does that sound like they are saying you are going to lose gas mileage?
-jim
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Until I try to accelerate.....
| Mobil itself claims only a 2% improvement in fuel economy Plain synthetic* is 50% more slippery than plain mineral oil, but a difference in torque ( fr using different oils ) is noticeable only @ high rpm, so the more usage @ high rpm produces the more rise in mpg : 2% is too low ( likely incl usage @ low rpm ), 5% must be the minimum rise in mpg @ high rpm if viscosity & qty are the same.
| I use Mobil 1 5W-20 Here in Msia, this is the costliest *, Bardahl * with fullerene, is the cheapest * & must be the most slippery oil.
Just out of curiosity, how much is Mobil 1 in Malaysia? (trying to compare Malaysia and Thai prices).
Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct email address for reply)
That's exactly right. In most places there are 3 grades of gasoline and the octane ratings for regular (lowest grade) aren't very exact so regular is allowed to be as low as 85 octane (the pump will say 87).
If some one wants to compare ethanol blend to straight gasoline, they should compare
87 octane straight gas to 90 octane gasohol (E10). That comparison stands a chance of being a fair comparison of the same gas with and without ethanol added. If that fair comparison is made most cars do not lose gas mileage and many gain mileage.When someone puts regular gas that is 10% ethanol they are putting a fuel that is ethanol mixed with 82-84 octane gasoline. If the result is a drop in mileage it is not because of the ethanol - it is because their car can't handle the low grade gasoline. If they could put straight 83 octane gas in their car they would see a much larger drop in mileage. The ethanol increases the mileage the 83 octane is what causes the decrease in mileage.
-jim
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So in other words you are totally full of shit and cannot even come up with one company that says they get better mileage on alcohol.
Your ramblings are bullshit, cite a 'fact' please!
Saying driving conditions affect is 'more' is total BS and a political sidestep of the actual Question.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos:
What was the actual question? You claim no one gets better mileage with ethanol and you have nothing to support that other than nothing more than your own bad experiences with your vehicle.
So what is BS about this statement?
Ethanol has the ability to improve combustion efficiency in many vehicles. For most vehicles, this increased efficiency offsets the slightly lower energy content in gasohol.
That's pretty clear most vehicles won't lose gas mileage. But I guess you are looking for somebody to guarantee the mileage on your vehicle. That won't happen.
Here is a report from the North Dakota study. Look at the table showing the results. Notice that the flex-fuel Chevy got 15% better gas mileage with 20% alcohol blend than it got on regular gasoline. Is that something you can comprehend? Sure flexfuel engine is an engine designed to run with ethanol, but that is the obvious point. When every gas pump has ethanol every engine will be designed to burn it more efficiently. Ethanol is like a catalytic converter with one big difference - instead of burning the extra fuel back in the tailpipe where it does no good you get to burn it in the engine where it delivers power to the wheels.
-jim
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If you scroll down that page you will find a link to a pdf document from the people who did the testing.
A few pages down the pdf you will see a disclamer that cotains the following:
Because of the research nature of the work performed, neither the EERC nor any of its
employees makes any warranty, express or implied, or assumes any legal liability or
responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information
What kind of testing is that if they are not willing to back up what they said ???? Sounds like bullshit to me.
No shit but bullshit eh.
Besides this poster 'Jim' claims 'he' gets better mileage with a gasoline engine alone.
But he sure can't find 'anyone' else in the world that claims the same.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos:
They tested 4 cars. That is not a big study. It was preliminary research to test the assumption that for a given car an optimum mix of gasoline and ethanol can be found that will get better mileage than either gasoline or ethanol alone. There conclusion from 4 cars was promising but its premature to make definite conclusions. I was responding to the guy who was claiming that all car manufacturers claim they get poorer gas mileage with ethanol blends. That statement was pure made up bullshit. The fact is no car manufacturer makes any claims at all about mileage - the only thing any of them will ever say is to parrot the EPA estimates. And we all know the EPA estimates are bullshit. No car manufacturer makes any mileage claims based on their own testing. That is none of them are willing to back anything up publicly. Its all bullshit. So you better get used to sifting through the bullshit, because that is all you are going to find in the media.
Nobody is going to stick there neck out and give you an express warranty about mileage for any car or any fuel. That article is about as close to real information as you probably ever going to see. The reality is that most of the other bullshit you will come across is based on simply calculating the BTU content of fuel. That means no testing done at all - just making things up and claiming they are fact.
The automobile engine wastes 2/3 or more of the energy contained in the fuel. From what I can tell the guy who started this thread is probably wasting about 80% of the energy he puts in his tank. Blaming that on ethanol is a joke. Bringing up the bogeyman of ethanol to explain why a vehicle gets 10 mpg is the kind of stupid thinking that leads to getting
10 mpg in the first place.-jim
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No two car engines from the same manufacturer Make and model of cars are exactaly alike, as far as gas mileage/fuel mileage/miles per gallon is concerned.The manufacturers test some vehicles and from that, they get an average.That is the way I see it anyway. cuhulin
jim wrote: And we all know the EPA estimates are bullshit.
Jim, you can't spin doctor this one.
If the EPA says cars get worse mileage and the makers agree, case closed fool.
You claimed cars get better mileage on alcohol, I called your BS. The EPA called your BS, the makers 'agree', therefore also calling your BS.
You keep making up more bullshit and found one bullshit 4 car test saying maybe.
No one else backs you up.
What is so hard to understand about something that has less BTU's giving less power. Seems pretty simple, but then....
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos:
Like I posted earlier, read the disclaimer:
Because of the research nature of the work performed, neither the EERC nor any of its employees makes any warranty, express or implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information
If they cannot claim resposibilty for the accuracy of the tests what good are the figures that they came up with ??? If you are going to do a test like that at least you should be able to say that the test figures are accurate, don't you think ??? With a disclaimer like that they can publish any mpg figures they want, even if they pulled them out of thin air. If they won't be responsible for the accuracy of the tests then the test info is meaningless!!!
Have you ever actually run an E10 blend of fuel ? I have, with several diffferent vehiclces and all of them got LESS MPG ON E10. Everyone I know that tried it also got LESS MPG ON E10. The gas stations also told people that they would get LESS MPG ON E10 !!! So why is it that you are the only one stating that you get better mpg on E10 ??? Even in the test results from the study that you posted only the flex fuel vehicle got better mpg on an ethanol blend. They claim two other vehicles saw a 1% improvement with the etanol blend but if you read the way the tests were performed they have greater than a 1% margin of error.
Mobil does not claim regular Mobil 1 provides a 2% increase. They do claim the new - "Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy is engineered to deliver outstanding engine protection and to offer improved fuel economy in vehicles where SAE 0W-30, 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil is recommended." They further claim (for the new grade) - " potential 2% fuel economy improvement (based on a comparison versus those grades most commonly used). Actual savings are dependent upon vehicle/engine type, outside temperature, driving conditions, adjusting tire pressure, and your current engine oil viscosity."
I am confident that if you compared "regular" Mobil 1 0W20 to the Motorcraft Sysntehtic Blend 5W20 oil, you won't detect any significant mileage improvement (assuming a careful long term comparison). Fuel economy improvments are associated with two processes - reduced pumping losses and reduced friction. Pumping losses are primarily related to the oil viscosity. 5W20 oil, at least when new, has similar viscosity in most climates whether it is synthetic or conventional. Of course in very low temperature situation, synthetic oil might provide a benefit until the engine warms up, but this is trival for most people not in Canada or Alaska. Friction reduction is mostly accomplished through additives. One interesting fact is the that the test to determine if an oil qualifies for the Energy Conserving" designation compares the oil under test to a synthetic oil. To qualify, the oil under test (either syntehtic or converntional) must demonstrate a significant improvement in fuel economy comapred to the refernce synthetic oil.
I use Mobil 1 in my Fusion and Frontier and plan to stick with it as well. I don't use it for the fuel savings.. I have compared the mileage for multiple vehicles when using Mobil 1 versus conventional oil (of the same viscosity) and never been able to detect a significant difference in fuel economy. I beleive Mobil 1 is better quality oil and that it provides superior protection to most conventional oils. Mostly I like the idea if I miss my regular oil change, I have some margin.
Ed
"Ignoramus15242" wrote in message news:CJydne3zE43oIZXVnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com...
Only 10 mpg?????
13 mpg is more what I would expect you to get.Not likely. Although I suppos eit is possible that the service stations were using 20W50 in your truck. But even a comparison between
5W30 Mobil 1 and 20W50 Convnetional oil wouldn't expalain a 20% change in mileage. At the very most you might se a 3% change between those sorts of extreemes.Most of my recent vehicles have shown improvements in mileage as they "break-in. But the improvements are far less than 20%, more like 3% to
7%.Possibly. Single tank averages are subject to large errors. And basing your mileage on miles per tank is a very poor technique. Are you filling up based on the position of the gas gauge and assuming that the gauge is so accurate / consistent that this is meanignful? If you really want to know, start keeping a gas purchase log.
No way.
Ed
Yes, where I live ethanol has been available for 45 years. I also live in one of the few states that actually does checking on the ethanol content of gasolines sold at the pump. Many states have no requirements for labeling at the pump and those states that do require labeling most of them have absolutely no enforcement of that requirement. The federal government has no requirements for labeling ethanol content. The EPA requires oxygenates in the areas that require it to attain clean air compliance - that means almost all gas in those areas is using ethanol since MTBE has been phased out. So the question is this - how do you know what is in the fuel in your tank?
I'm not the only one If you read the next paragraph even you state that it does occur. But more important why should I give any credit to what you say? It's not like you take any responsibility for any of your claims. It's not like you have made any effort to explore the facts or whether the statements you make contain any truth. The fact is that ethanol is an octane booster. That means oil refineries can now produce base fuel stock at 83 octane and sell it as regular gas by adding ethanol. When they refine 83 octane instead of 67 octane they get
3.5% more gasoline from a barrel of oil. That is pure profit in their pocket. In addition to that for every gallon of ethanol they purchase they get a 51 cent tax credit. More profit because the ethanol is actually cheaper than gasoline at current oil and corn prices.So while at the same time the oil companies are bad-mouthing ethanol they are buying and selling as much as they can and laughing all the way to the bank. Exxon Mobil announced recently that they are now selling only ethanol gas at all of their terminals that are within reach of ethanol plants - that is most of them. Many of the small refineries like Marathon have been selling only ethanol blended gas for a few years. So why should I take anything you say seriously? The stuff you claim gives you better mileage might well have more ethanol in it than the stuff you think gives you bad mileage.
Yes you did notice that. And that increased mileage was 15%. And that is the point - given that almost every pump will have ethanol in a few years (it may already be that way where you live) It is worth knowing that engines can be designed and tuned to get significantly better mileage using ethanol.
-jim
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Yup. One of many possible ones.
I'm gonna question that. My understanding is that the knock resistance (which is really what the octane rating is) of retail gasoline is pretty weakly dependent on the "base stock" except for contamination with long-chain HCs more akin to diesel and kerosene that might be present and would lower octane significantly. Anything in the octane ranges we see at the pump ((R+M)/2 method) is going to be totally dominated by the additive package, not by the base stock. So if they don't add ethanol, they still have to add something ELSE. I'm certainly no chemical engineer, but I have never read anything to indicate that gas companies are getting to the octane ratings we see at the pump purely through producing highly refined base stock gasoline. Its ALWAYS brought up with additives.
Well it is possible to make the base blend high enough octane to not need additives at any rate some of what you may call additives are petroleum distillates. What comes down to is the base stock does have a octane number and since that is the largest component that is the biggest factor in what the final octane is at the pump.
You mean like MTBE? Lead used to be added to boost octane. MTBE became popular when lead was phased out. MTBE has as high octane as ethanol but even less energy per gallon. MTBE has been widely used to boost octane in the last 20 years. But MTBE is now being phased out.
Gasoline is not a well defined single chemical it's made of a mix of different molecules each of them has a different octane rating. In theory the total octane is the weighted sum of its parts. In general higher octane components cost more to refine and some of the higher octane molecules are formed by additional refining of lower octane components.
But to address the question - yes it is possible to have the blendstock have high enough octane by itself. 98 octane is not impossible it is just more expensive to refine.
< I'm certainly no chemicalIf additives can be added cheaper than more refining then there is a big incentive to do that.
-jim
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