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{OT} why we cannot leave iraq

There is another choice other than what you have detailed. We will never be able to take out all insurgents and bring peace to all the provinces of Iraq. There are just too many entrenched rivalries and loyalties to various factions. The problem has to be solved at the national level.

The central government must be established to a point where it will have the ability to put down local uprisings in a definite manner where they won't try again. This means manpower, weapons, intelligence, and most of all, the will to take them out. This is what made Saddam Hussein successful at controlling secterian viloence. However his implementation of these methods were so brutal to the point of terrorism among his people. There must be some sort of mechanism put in place where the government can crack down on violence but there be some restraints in place to prevent totalitarianism. A modified version of our Constitution may be the answer, with the current model as an incentive down the road if all is quieted down.

Granted people may not want what we have at this time, but I'm confident once they get a taste of freedom and are allowed to use their entrepreneurial skills they will flourish just like most other countries that have become free. I believe people's spirits want to be free rather than encumbered by a tyrannical government that is not accountable to anyone. If Iraqis are like Iranians they are just as capable of flourishing in the new environment of capitalism.

Of course all this is my opinion and it probably won't work, but to leave now or before there is a strong central government would be a terrible mistake and we will have abandoned the Iraqi people one more time when they were on the verge of freedom from tyranny. The rewards of staying are just as high as the perils of leaving. There is no easy answer right now but Iran must be kept out of there at all costs or we can expect the entire Middle East to become a formidable enemy to the rest of the world. If Iraq goes to Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan will be next since they have racial ties to them. Next would probably be Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf states. We wouldn't want that, would we?

Reply to
badgolferman
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I hear what you're saying and I even agree with it but that's a set of goals and a value statement, it's not a plan. Well, I agree with most of it; I'm not sold on the domino effect in the last paragraph. Iran's influence would grow, certainly, but Nasser couldn't build pan-Arabia and I don't think Ahmedinejad can build pan-Islam.

I have a plan. Eliminate their oil weapon. Without money, Iran can't support Hezbollah or other terrorist-connected groups, they lose influence and their own people become restive. They also won't have money for weapons development.

The problem with my plan is that it requires some sacrifice on our part - not just the military's. We have to cut our use. The nifty part is that we don't have to cut it by much, as every member of OPEC is a greedy pig. Demand for oil is inelastic - but so is the supply. If we cut our consumption, they'll be cutting price to try to keep immediate revenues up.

If, under those conditions, we also stay in Iraq - and I'm still not convinced it will matter if we do - we might outlast the capability of the insurgents and get some peace.

Reply to
dh

The other problem with your plan is it will require cooperation from China, France, Germany, and other countries. It would be easier to herd cats. Unfortunately I believe we cannot depend on them to be on board with sanctioning Iran's oil exports. We are in this almost alone except for Israel and a few other countries.

Reply to
badgolferman

I think you underestimate (or, true, maybe I overestimate) our market power in this regard. We use a large fraction of the world's oil. I believe the math is with us.

But, it would require sacrifice on everybody's part. Who's going to vote for a $2/gallon hike in the gas tax? That's about what it would take.

On the other hand, something like this is long overdue, else Iran and other tyrannies willl just continue to freely cash in. You're think freedom is contagious? You may be right but we have to nurture it and work for it and it isn't free. Check this:

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Reply to
dh

The truth is probably somewhere in between our views.

Or a contrived shortage. Better yet, a true incentive to automakers, utilities, and other producers of energy. Whether that's through social engineering or financial incentives is beyond me.

Freedom is not free as you say. It requires more bloodshed and sacrifice than the average Frenchman is willing to give. But the rewards are greater than the shortcomings. Why else would people be knocking down the doors to come to America? It certainly isn't because of our world-renowned food.

The chart makes it appear when there is a semblance of freedom in the Third World oil prices come down, imagine that.

Reply to
badgolferman

Let's us not make it deductable. Would that make it more or less undesirable to you? Yes or no?

BTW, I don't itemize, therefore to make it deductable would not benifit me. So lets us be fair all around, OK.

Reply to
dbu'

GWB at the onset never said it would be easy. Americans tend to think things happen in weeks. There are events in the world that take far longer than weeks or even months and years. A good example is the islamic fundamentalists. They seem to have better discipline that us.

Reply to
dbu'

You can tax a specific deduction for charitable contributions, even if you don't otherwise itemize. No reason not to do the same with this.

Or adjust something else to make the tax package revenue-neutral and let the chips from this fall where they may. I'm not fussy.

Or propose a different plan to cut oil consumption. I'm not fussy. The tax leaves the market the most free to make adjustements and allocations and I consider it more efficient. Paul Krugman, I think, proposed a "floor" tax on oil at the import terminal or wellhead to artificially raise the price. I'm OK with that, too. That would probably also be fairly efficient.

By all means. Propose another method.

Reply to
dh

Why should we penalize our own people with yet another tax? If the democrats take control of one or both houses this fall they will press for higher taxes. That will not be a good thing for gore when he runs again in 08.

Making taxes deductable only pushes of the burden onto someone else. I am for eliminating ALL damn deductions period, in addition, they are a political football. If new taxes are made into law without deductions the voter will feel the full impact and vote accordingly.

The solution to imported oil is to cut back on consumption, which we are doing, but it takes time. I'd rather, see us all in little electric cars than be taxed to death. Talk about taking freedoms away, is about using tax as a weapon against something that one party, political or otherwise, doesn't ike. Forget the damn taxes and let the marketplace rule.

Reply to
dbu'

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