Re: How do I buy a Toyota?

Mike's right. However, instead of using a fax, I would just email the dealers. Many or most dealers have internet sales people who deal just with internet sales. In additiion, you can learn a lot about car prices, incentives, invoice price, etc., on the internet. Do your homework.

Jeff

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I got some prices for hybrid Highlander and the Escape/Mariner hybrids. No one was willing to give me a reduction off MSRP for the Ford products because of a claimed shortage. Only one dealer offered a reduction (between $2,000 and $3,000) on the Highlander and my SO and I will try to get an order in on it tomorrow. The sales rep wasn't sure that Toyota can deliver in 3 months claiming it might be as long as 6 months.

-- Ron

Toyota isn't giving the discount, the dealer is giving a discount.

The Ford/Mercury dealers are losing the sale. Ford has the advantage of the tax rebate on the hybrid vehicle. The main problem is that the Escape/Mariner hybrid has less carrying capacity, less towing capacity, and less power than the Highlander, but it does have better gas milage.

The Escape/Mariner does have keypad entry which is useful to me, and it has sonar backup warning (the Highlander has the backup camera, but it's hard to look at that while also trying to observe the fender situation.

The Escape/Mariner hybrid has gone to rear drum brakes which extends the stopping distance over the previous year's disc brakes.

In all, I think that the Highlander is at least worth $5,000 more than the Escape/Mariner, and the prices I am getting for the Ford product ($32,960) are nowhere near that cheap.

GM is even worse, they announced that they are delaying the dual mode hybrid Vue for financial reasons.

Chrysler's a real basket case. They gave a third of the company to Fiat for nothing. I would have bought a hybrid minivan from them if they had been shipping, but I think at the latest Detroit Auto show, their new hybrid minivan will be underpowered.

-- Ron

None of the local Ford dealers has been able to keep a hybrid Escape on the lot long enough for me to test drive one. I know they are selling them because I see on them on the local roads. I am not willing to consider purchasing one without at least a test drive.

I am surprised you are having trouble finding a Highlander Hybrid. They are not exactly selling like hot cakes. The local Toyota Dealers (Raleigh, NC) still have left over 2008 models on the lot. There are at least 30 2009 models available to Southeast Toyota dealers immediately (as in tomorrow).

It is pretty clear why Highlanders Hybrids are being discounted and Escapes Hybrids are not. Highlander Hybrids are readily available and Escape Hybrids are not. Remember, that Ford purchases some of the key components for the Escape Hybrid form Aisin-Warner which is controlled by Toyota. Escape Hybrid production is being limited by availability of these components.........

A word of warning about Toyota dealers - many are scum (but then I suppose this applies to all dealers for all brands....Toyota just seems to have a higher percentage). My SO and both my sisters have recently purchased RAV4's. Several dealers quoted decent discounts over the internet, but when it came time to get down to brass tacks outrageous fees got added to the bottom line. They all ended up buying form the same dealer just outside the immediate Raleigh area (50 miles away). Another friend just purchased an Avalon; he also had to go to a dealer outside the immediate area to avoid the double dealing, BS, and lies.

BTW, I don't really consider the Escape Hybrid and Highlander Hybrid to be in the same class. The Escape is comparable to a RAV4, not the much larger Highlander. If you only want the smaller vehicle, you would be better off buying a 4 Cylinder Front Wheel Drive Automatic Escape. It will average about the same fuel economy as the Highlander Hybrid and will cost many many thousand less and you'll never have to worry about replacing the hybrid battery. You will have no problem having a Ford dealer discount a non-hybrid Escape.

Ed

I drove a 2008 Escape hybrid last year and didn't have the power that suited compared to my 2001 Windstar.

The local Mercury dealer has a few hybrid Mariners and I was able to drive one and the 20 extra horsepower a big boost with the addition of ESC, I think it is a good vehicle.

A local Ford dealer has some hybrid Escapes (including a FWD) coming in because of someone backing out of a fleet buy.

My problem is that we didn't want the 3rd row seating and there are only two available without third row seating in the US. Dealers like to buy the vehicles with lots of options to get a higher price and more negotiating room.

One of the Toyota dealers I contacted didn't have any hybrids -- it was a small dealership.

Sure dealers don't have a good reputation and I was subjected to a little "advertisement" about the advantages of protection schemes for the paint job and upholstery.

I got a $125 dealer prep fee added, but including that my entire discount is about $3,000. I had to add some options like trailer hitch assembly, Tonneau cover, door guard strips, and iPod adapter.

Since I am ordering factory built, delivery may take 3-4 months, but

10 weeks is a possibility. The dealer said that I should know within 5 weeks what the actual delivery time is.

You're right, the vehicles aren't in the same class, but I was willing to go with the hybrid Escape if the price was low enough compared to the Highlander. Safety, carrying capacity, and price were my main considerations with milage somewhat secondary. Hybrid vehicles have an advantage over non-hybrids by being able to have more sophisticated stability control and the improved gas milage will make the vehicle affordable to drive when the gas prices go back up. Hybrids are having very good resale value which helps reduce the cost of ownership.

The major safety advantage is that braking in the Highlander stops from 70 to 0 in 177 ft and from 60 to 0 in 123 ft compared to something much higher for the Escape partly due to the rear drum brakes (a bad change from the 2008 model).

We don't do a lot of traveling, so the better gas milage isn't the dominate factor in getting a hybrid especially with today's low gas prices.

-- Ron

The rear drum brakes are not likely the culprit. It is almost certainly the tires on the vehicles tested. The next most likely culprit is the ABS programming. For a relatively front heavy vehicle like the Escape, the rear brakes are not the major factor in stopping distance (at least for a one off panic stop). I am sure that without interference from the ABS, the rear drums are capable of locking the rear brakes during a one off panic stop. Ford claimed the brakes were improved for 2009 (and the tires definitely are - Michelins are standard now in place of the horrid Contracs). Where did you find stopping distances for a 2009? All I see are 2008 and earlier road test numbers (Consumers Report test for a 2008 V-6 Escape quoted 161 feet from 60; for a 2008 Hylander Hybrid, they claim 140 feet for 60 to 0; Edmunds.com actually claimed a 2008 Mariner Hybrid had a 138

60-0 stopping distance??? This is much shorter than CR. Edmunds measured a 127 ft 60 to 0 for a 2008 Highlander Hybrid).

One other question - you indicated gas mileage was not an improtant issue, if so, then why the Hybrid? It is a many thousand dollar option, adds complesity to the car, and someday will require an expensive hybrid battery replacement (someday is unknown, possibly after you sell the car, but still someday).

Ed

pointsout the superiority of disc brakes. Manufacturers are simply trying tocut costs and don't consider 10 extra feet in stopping distanceimportant. If a large truck is behind you, it's 295 ft stoppingdistance will get you anyway.

Yes, worn tires extend the stopping distance considerably and the type of tire can make a big difference in wet or icy conditions.

If the brakes lock the wheels, stopping distance is increased because sliding friction is less than rolling friction.

The Toyota sales rep gave me those figures. The Highlander hasn't changed from 2008 and the hybrid vs non-hybrid stopping distances shouldn't differ appreciably except for the higher weight of the hybrid.

The whole business of stopping distance needs to be looked at from one testing organization because so much depends on the conditions. Unfortunately, neither IIHS nor NHTSA tests stopping distances for a broad range of models. And, there is no government requirement for manufacturers to list stopping distances.

Milage is still an issue, but it isn't enough by itself to justify purchasing a hybrid. At current annual driving distances, I would hope to save $500 per year if gas goes back to $4.00 per gallon. The hybrid would give me a 25% increase in driving range. The hybrid has considerable less brake wear because of regenerative braking. The traction, stability control, and braking is improved under a variety of conditions because electric motors are easier to control than a mechanical drive. The hybrid Highlander can accelerate faster than the non-hybrid. Resale values are higher for a hybrid.

-- Ron

I don't think that the reason that so few non-third row seating Highlanders are available is because of the extra cost, it's because very few people would buy a Highlander for any reason other than needing the extra seating capacity. If they needed cargo space they'd buy a less expensive cargo van, and dog owners seem to like the Honda Element, which seats 4, but has more space for the dogs.

Automakers like to put drum brakes on the rear because it's much simpler to implement the parking brake with rear drums than rear discs.

That's good, because a lot of people rush out and buy hybrids thinking they'll save a fortune in fuel costs, but never recover the extra initial cost, plus they're stuck with a hybrid and its significant extra maintenance costs.

You mean the part that says - " the truth is that today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on today's cars would provide better stopping performance then the front disc setups of the '70s. And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional in terms of stopping power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90 percent of a vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's clear that a well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for most rear wheel brake duty.?"

Tires are the major factor for a single panic stop. Almost any vehicle has brakes large enough to lock the brakes (except for ABS). Front to rear balance s also a factor. TIres don't have to be worn to affect braking distances. If you look at tire tests, you can see large difference in braking distances for the same car with different tires installed. The Contracs on the Escape CR tested are the rate worst in the Tire Rack SUV Tire survey.

Actually maximum traction is obtained at some percentage of slip (not completely rolling, not completely locked).

But you were missing my point. It is not that the drum brakes would lock the rear wheel, it is that they have more than enough stopping power to lock the rear wheels (at least for a one time panic stop). Disc brakes can't do any more than this. If you can apply enough force to max out the tire's traction, you have done all you can. The big advantage of disc brakes versus drum brakes is not single stop braking ability. Either can be made powerful enough to provide more braking force than the tires can transmit to the road (at least when cool). The advantage of dis brakes is their ability to rapidly disapate heat and therefore provide repeated stops (or to provide continuous high braking force for along periods). For a single panic stop with cool brakes, there is no real advantage. And for a front heavy front wheel drive vehicle, rear disc brakes are not needed. They are installed mainly for marketing reasons. Race cars have disc brakes, so a large segment of the population think this means they are cool and have been sold on the idea that they are needed. Often they are just for show.

OK, I suspect that is true. But Ford says the Escape has better stopping distances for 2009. So you are comparing a 2008 to the Highlander, not the 2009.

The problem is, what conditions do you want to measure them under? There are federal satandards for brakes, but unifrom testing is a nightmare. Even for CR this is a problem, They always use the same test track, but they can't control the temperature/weather. Other magazines use various test facilities, so you can't even count on them running tests using the same surface type/frictional characteristics from test to test.

In the CR tests, the 2008 Higlander Hybrid was slightly slower than the V6 Higlander to 60 - 8.2 vs 8.0. They had identical 1/4 mile times. The Hybrid had a higher trap speed (90 vs 87.1). The Highlander also had a slightly better 45 to 65 time (5.0 vs 5.1). I'd say there was not a real difference in performance. The hybrid definitely had better fuel economy. CR's overall for the hybrid was 24, versus 18 for the conventional V6. The CR trip mileage was closer (26 for the Hybrid, 22 for the conventional V6). The conventional V6 Highlander has a larger fuel tank, so the range is about the same for both. I suppose we will eventually see $4 gas again, but it might be a few years. I think I'd figure the savings on $2.75 gas. So it you drive

12,000 mile a year, the Hybrid might cost $1,269 for fuel versus $1,500 for the conventional V6. I think your fuel savings will be a lot closer to $250 a year than $500 but certainly that is subject to fuel costs, driving style, and miles driven per year. It is going to take a long time to offset the extra cost of the hybrid (~$6k) based on fuel saving alone. I guess it comes down to how much higher the resale value will be when you sell the vehicle. I would guess you couldn't count on more than a $2.5k advantage after three years, much less if you hold on to the vehicle for 6 or 7. As a guess, let's say in 5 years you recoup $2k of the extra cost of the hybrid and that you had no additional maintenace costs. I don't think the longer brake wear will come into play until the vehicle has more than 80k miles (at least it has been a long time since I had brakes that would not go 80K). So, lets say you drive the vehcile for 12k miles a year for 5 years and then sell it. I will assume $2k of the inital hybrid cost are recouped at that time. So the "extra" cost of owning a hybrid is $6,000-$2,000-(12*$250) + $6,000*.05 = $1,300 (the $6,000*.05 is for additional interest paid) . Clearly you can move these figures around to show a net savings (assume higher gas prices and/or more miles per year, or a greater resale value for the hybrid feature) or a larger net loss (assume lower gas prices, fewer miles driven, etc). I don't see the pay off for a hybrid. And I would be especially worried about buying a used hybrid becasue of the uncertainty of battery replacement / additional maintenance of the hybrid system. And since I have a bad habit of wanting a new car every 2 or 3 years, I know a hybrid would be a poor choice for me. The only offset in my case is the "cool" factor. I do like gadgets, and hybrid cars are the ultimate automotive gadget these days.

In the end, I don't think car buying is always a rational process. Your happiness with the product is all the justification you need.

Ed

I think that the reason that so few non-third row seating Highlanders are available is because the third row seating is standard, and the third row seats fold flat so there is not loss of storage space. You have to delete the third row seat as an option if you do not want the third row seating and want the under floor storage space where the third row seating would be stored.

What significant extra maintenance costs does a hybrid incur?

Battery replacement.

What Toyota has done with their hybrid system is to minimize the usage of the batteries in terms of how low they are allowed to discharge, and how high they are allowed to charge. This masks the battery wear. Normally, NiMH batteries are good for about 700 complete charge/discharge cycles. Toyota's system never fully discharges the batteries, and never fully charges them. On the Prius, outside the U.S., there is a button to press to allow slightly more discharge, but it still is very limited.

What's going to happen, over time, is that the distance that can be driven before the engine comes on, will gradually decrease. The vehicle will still work fine, and Toyota can legitimately claim that there is nothing wrong with the batteries (if the owner ever realizes that they're driving less on battery-only power).

Is this really going to make much difference? It seems to me the real advantage of the Prius-like hybrids is the ability to recover energy when slowing down. As long as the battery is still able to recover and retain this energy long enough for it to be reused to accelerate the vechile, will the difference be significant?

Ed

I am familiar with

This explanation would make sense if Toyota was selling batteries due to the condition you are describing, however, this is not the case. Dealers stock items that need routine replacement, such as oil filters, brake parts, exhausts, belts, etc. but they do not stock hybrid batteries because they do not need routine replacement. Up until a couple of years ago, the only replacement batteries that Toyota has sold through dealers were for warranty repairs and collision repairs, in spite of close to a million hybrid vehicles on the road. I did read a post where someone was questioning the availability of replacement batteries for a Prius with 245,000 miles.

Obviously, nothing lasts forever, however, the hybrid battery packs appear to be lasting as long as most of the vehicles remain in service, without a noticeable decline in the battery's capacity as would be indicated by a decrease in fuel economy. If the 245,000 mile life is typical, that seems pretty reasonable to me.

t of ownership.

Comparing the 4WD Kelly Blue Book values for 2006 Highlander at 40,000 miles, the value for the hybrid is $26,350 and the non-hybrid is $18,250 for a price difference of $8,100. The MSRP on the 2009 Highlanders differs by about $7,000.

-- Ron

Well looks like I was wrong. I will say, that after checking prices for the Highlander, it looks to me like the difference for the new Highlanders Hybrid versus a similar convnetional model is also $8k. Still it is possible the additional cost will be recouped when you sell the car (at least you can hope so). I did try to find an actual

2006 Highlander offered for sale locally and they are very rare. Used conventional Highlanders seem to be plentiful, so supply and demand appears to be a factor. I wonder if that will hold up in the future.

I guess I underestimated the hybrid mania. Would you be willing to pay $8k more to get the hybrid feature on a 3 year old used car with 40k miles? At some point the resale value for both versions has to converge to near zero (near zero being whatever the scrap value is); so sooner or later someone is going to get left holding the bag for the extra cost of the hybrid. I guess you can always apply the greater fool theory.....it seems to have worked well for the housing and stock markets.

Ed

Probably not. I did a search on toyotacertifiedhybrids.com and found a

2004 Prius with 71,442 miles for 14,995.

I've been holding onto cars waiting for sufficient improvements to justify my getting a new one. The hybrid feature along with stability control and airbags everywhere encouraged me to get a new one. The plug in feature along with radar based speed control will probably be the next features to cause me to change.

-- Ron

The thing is that the Prius does not let you use all of the energy that it can reclaim, so if the batteries wane a bit it will not be noticed in MPG unless the waning is significant enough. How much I don't know, but I do know that if it would let me use electrics moreso, I would be getting even better MPG than I do now. They dialed in battery longevity as a higher priority than battery usage by my operation experience. Tomes

"Ray O"...

Yep.

Although I didn't try the third row seat, many claim that it isn't suitable for seating adults. The third row seat is only removable with a bit of work.

-- Ron