Some flake who just bought another new Chevy truck - "because payments were only about $50 per month more than for his two year old truck" told me that he always took his vehicles to the dealer for service because he did NOT want refabricated or re-refined OLD oil in his vehicles!
I stated that if this were the case then I would be more suspicious of a dealership than a drive in JiffyLube or similar establishment - at least there you can observe everything done from five feet away.
Is any of this a serious issue. (Not that the person did not know his total purchase price or even interest rate and qualifies for reduced utility bills.)
It does not matter whether the motor oil is "new" or "re-refined" as long as it meets API specifications for grade and viscosity. I believe that used motor oil is more commonly utilized in waste oil heater and boilers, asphalt, and heating oil than for motor oil.
As far as whether I would trust a dealership or JiffyLube or similar establishment, from my experience and in my opinion, I would trust a dealership to do a proper oil change before I trusted a quick oil change place. Dealership technicians go to factory sponsored technical classes while the person who does oil changes probably receives no formal training. Oil change chains will use cheapest oil filter they can get, while the dealership will use OEM filters, and most dealerships are competitive in oil change pricing. I have seen a lot more ruined engines caused by botched oil changes at quick lube places than at dealerships.
Regardless of where you go for an oil change, the only way to be sure what you getting is to have them pour it out of a can (instead of overhead tanks and barrels) and watch them do it.
Actually, I have started to bring my own oil to the oil change place because a 5 quart bottle of Mobil 1 costs less at Wal-Mart than the extra amount they charge for the same oil (over and above a standard oil change).
Ray O is so right. My Toyota dealer does a fine job changing the motor oil. I'll never go to Jiffy Lube again. A few years ago I took a Tercel to Jiffy Lube. When the Tercel went in, it had pink coolant. When it came out, it had green coolant.
Most dealers that run quick lube operations do not send their oil change "technicians" to any training classes.
When I go to an oil change place (not the dealer) I always bring my own filter, and sometimes my own oil.
But I would never go to Jiffy Lube. There are other chains which are much better. Locally owned franchised places (not corporate owned) are often the best.
I do not know how many dealership service operations you are familiar with, I have worked closely with aout 50 or so and have advised them on the pros and cons of using traditional, group, or teams dispatch and production; how to analyze and improve work mix, how to analyze and monitor technician and shop productivity; and of course, the benefits of sending all technicians to factory training classes and maintaining the proper technican skills mix to control their cost of sales.
A smaller dealership service with less than 10 technicians generally cannot justify someone dedicated to just oil changes, and so regular line technicians generally perform all of the work, including oil changes.
Medium and large dealership service departments are more likely to use advanced production techniques and/or employ union technicians and so hiring someone dedicated just to oil changes is pretty much precluded.
I stand behind my statement that you are much more likely to have a trained technician perform an oil change at a new vehicle dealership than at a quick lube place. In an automaker's regional area, I'd hear of one botched oil change performed by a dealership every year or two, while I'd hear of a botched oil change done by a quick lube place about every other month, keeping in mind that I would hear of every botched dealer job and only hear of the botched quick lube jobs on cars that were under warranty.
Having spent 15 years in the automotive business, my preference for oil changes are the dealership or I do it myself. If you are particular about how oil changes are performed, go through the bother to purchase your own oil and OEM filter, double-check the oil change to make sure it is filled to the full mark on the dipstick and the oil filter is new, then you may wish to invest in the additional 15 ~ 20 minutes to change the oil and filter yourself.
They left the oil filler cap off my Camry after oil change once upon a time. I didn't know anything was wrong until I got half way to work and smelled burned oil. Now, IF I have oil changed by someone else I always look under the hood before I leave, and check the oil level too. Another time one other oil change place stripped the oil pan plug. That turned out to be a mess. Ya really got to watch those guys. I've not had any problem with the Toyota dealer oil changes.
I would like to change the oil myself, but I am not able to where I am currently living. Also, I have noticed that as I get older that either cars are getting lower, or I am getting wider. This makes it impossible to reach the drain plug without raising the car up somehow.
I pay about $25-$30 for the standard oil change, plus about $22 for a
5-quart bottle of Mobil 1 5W-30 (purchased at Wal-Mart), plus about $10 for a filter (usually Mobil 1). Since I use Mobil 1 full synthetic, I feel very comfortable in using a 6,000 - 75000 mile oil change interval.
At a quick lube place (never Jiffy Lube) I stand about 10-15 feet from the front of the car (outside the garage) and watch what they are doing.
Even the low end of the prices you quoted comes to $57 for an oil change. Our local Toyota dealer charges around $23 for an oil change that includes an OEM filter, and even if you add $22 for the Mobil 1, that's $12 less than the independent shop. Our local dealership is set up so that you can watch the technician work on your car. Check around to see if any in your area are set up so you can watch. For a little extra "comfort factor," choose a dealership that has consistently received Toyota's Service Excellence and President's awards. The criteria pretty much weeds out dishonest ones.
It sound like you are either pretty particular about the work done on your car, or you do not trust the folks working on your car, or both. The vast majority of the service departments I called on were very honest and competent, IMO, much more so than the quick lube places. I am also pretty particular about the work done on our cars, which is why I do most of the work myself. Even from 10 feet away, there is no way to tell if the technician wiped the oil filter mounting surface before installing the new filter, if he over or under-tightened the filter or drain plug, or if he installed a new drain plug gasket that the parts department gives me with every OEM filter I buy. By doing this work myself, I know the work was done correctly.
As far as a place to do the work, I'd cut a deal with a friend with a garage, jack, and jack stands, or invest in a set of ramps.
One of the automotive technical schools that runs lots of infomercials here, Universal Technical Institute
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says that their students start working at local dealerships long before graduating. Is this a common practice, and if it is, what sort of work do they do at the dealerships?
Toyota sponsors the Toyota Technical Education Network, or T-TEN through local community colleges. Toyota provides the schools with factory service manuals, some special service tools, the curriculum for the courses that the technicians take for factory certification, some cars and trucks. The technicians who enroll in the 2 year program have to get an internship at a Toyota dealership during their second year, after they have taken a couple of generic automotive courses and while they are taking Toyota-specific courses.
The advantage for the dealership if they give the student a full-time job after graduation is that the student will have already taken most or all of the courses offered to dealership technicians, with just time and real-world experience needed for the tech to become productive. The advantage for Toyota is that in theory, their dealers will have an easier time finding and hiring technicians with a better understanding of how automotive systems work instead of mechanics who are just part-changers.
The work the interns do at the dealership varies widely, from sweeping floors to doing simple work on cars. The dealers who take training seriously usually give the intern a week in the parts department and then either assign them to work with an experienced technician or team or have them work on cars for the used car department doing stuff like checking brakes, changing fluids, etc. I'd say that most dealerships have interns doing maintenance and inspections on used cars because they do not have the time constraint that they do with a customer's car, and since the used car department does not pay the same as a customer does, the service department will assign the lowest-paid person to do their work. Service department work can be divided into 2 general categories: maintenance and repair. Maintenance work tends to be more profitable than repair work, which is why you see so many places that do oil changes, brakes, shocks, mufflers, tune-ups, etc.
The interns generally do not work on customer vehicles unless they are under the direct supervision of an experienced technician. The practical reasons for this are that the interns are usually not capable of diagnosing problems and doing repairs by themselves, and the line technicians would all quit if the lucrative maintenance work was assigned to a new technician.
A dealer will not let me supply the oil, so the amount they would charge for Mobil 1 is much higher. I forgot to mention that the quick lube place gives me off for bringing my own oil, and -2 off for bringing my own filter.
But even if they let me supply the oil, I could not watch them pour it in, so I would not know whether they used their own conventional oil or the Mobil 1 I supplied them (either by mistake or intentionally).
I use a Mobil 1 filter, which costs about more than the Toyota OEM filter.
Actually, I would not say that I am overly "particular," but I have just learned how to not get screwed by a quick lube place when I cannot change it myself, or by a dealer (either through incompetence or fraud).
I don't anyone who changes their own oil, so it would not be easy for someone to loan me their garage for me to change it.
I did try one of the oil extractors to remove the oil from the top, but it only worked for one oil change and then after that I could not get enough suction to remove all the oil.
Ray, You did not say in what language(s) all these classes are conducted .
All the horror stories seemed to have in common that there was missing proof of consistent timely oil changes by anybody. Also spoke with a friend, a local auto instructor and 20+ years of owning Toyota and he suggested that IF you keep good receipts with date, licence plate and mileage then T will accept that. (never had a claim) On the filter (one specific family owned quick lube location) - they write in the filter number. Such as "Sure Filter SFO-241". They claim to have insurance and do over a 100 cars a day - many new and all brands etc. Never had a problem other than dealers 'telling stories'.
He does agree as one 'expert' on the web - that allow NO fluids other than the motor oil to be added. It is simply too easy to make a mistake between the many fluids required. He does use the above quick lube.
Would T have a problem honoring a warranty with the above info? Would SFO-241 be the kiss of death?
If you are getting $6 or $7 off of the quick lube place's price, then it starts to make a little more sense.
I really am not a fan of any quick lube places, whether they are corporate-owned or franchised.
For what you are looking for, I would find a reputable independent shop. I'm sure there are independent shops where you can see them do the work and they are flexible in npricing if you bring your own product.
I am pretty particular, and I have seen firsthand the results of many maintenance attempts by many different service facilities, which is why I bring my vehicle to the dealer for work I do not do myself. IMO, the chances of incompetence or fraud at a quick lube place are a lot higher than at a dealership. There are good quick lube places out there and there are incompetent or fraudulent dealers, but overall, I'd take my chances with a dealer.
You have to learn how to car network. Since most of the people you meet have cars, most will have at least some interest in cars. Even when camping or at a social gathering, I will find out what people drive, what they like and don't like about their ride, and where they get it serviced. Friends with collector cars or modified cars are good bets to have a garage and good collection of tools.
I've never used one of those extractors. It seems to me that the theory behind those extractors is good but the reality is not. There are applications where an extractor is the only practical way to change oil, like boats.
If the only thing you are going to do is change oil, then ramps are a good investment because they are safe when used properly and are easier to store and transport from a condo or apartment than a floor jack and jack stands.
The absence of proof is not proof of absence, however, the pattern seems to be that people who went over 7,000 miles between oil changes were more likely to encounter problems than people who changed their oil at shorter intervals.
Toyotas used to be very tolerant of lack of maintenance, and tolerance has diminished some, much to the dismay of the people who are remiss in their maintenance.
The title "auto instructor" does not really give an indication of the instructor's automotive expertise. For example, high school level automotive shop is pretty basic, while vocational school or junior college is more involved, while the person who teached college level courses or who trains factory technicians is more technical. Also, knowledge of automotive principles does not necessarily include knowledge of automaker warranty policies and procedures.
The best receipts show date, mileage, VIN, receipt number, and name of servicing facility. Since I change my own oil, I keep the part of the oil filter box that shows the part number, and on the back side, write mileage and date and toss it in the glove box along with the receipt for the filters. I usually buy several filters at a time so there are more box labels than receipts.
I would expect any service facility, whether a quick lube business or dealership, to include the quanty and type of motor oil added, oil filter part number, mileage, VIN, and date on the receipt.
The dealership has no reason to deny a legitimate claim, and a legitimate servicing facility can easily spot fraudulent receipts. I've had people give me receipts for oil changes that are exactly 3,500 miles apart, or the receipts are dated 3 months apart but the receipt numbers are either consecutive or only 100 apart, or you remove the oil pan and no oil comes out.
I'll share what I preach about automotive maintenance and "experts." Without getting into automotive background and experience and having the expertise to evaluate whether someone from Pittsburgh State is better trained than someone from Gomer Pyle's Automotive Academy, there is no easy way to know which "experts" to listen to and which "experts" to ignore. From a logical perspective, I doubt if many people know more about a particular vehicle than the folks who designed and built that vehicle, so when in doubt, follow the manufacturer's recommendations. If the automaker says to put tigersnot in with the oil, then go ahead an put tigersnot in, otherwise, don't put anything in.
It depends on what caused the problem. If an aftermarket oil filter leaked because a gasket was missing or whoever changed the oil failed to notice the old gasket still on the mating surface or something along those lines, then that is not the automaker's fault and they will not warrant someone else's work or product.
I have no idea whether an SFO-241 is a great filter or a junk filter and to be honest, I have no interest in finding out. I KNOW that Toyota will not deny a claim caused by a failure of a Toyota brand oil filter; I KNOW that a Toyota brand oil filter is good enough for Toyota to put on the brand new engines they build; and I know that a Toyota brand oil filter costs about the same as a filter you buy at an auto parts store. Rather than experiment, I prefer to use what I know is good.
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