T is # 6 in reliability survey

#1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1.

Reply to
mike
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I assume you're being facetious, and that you know Lexus *is* Toyota, right? :)

That aside, JDP is well known as being very heavily subjective.

But I believe some Buicks are exceptionally good cars - just too large for my taste.

Natalie

Reply to
Wickeddoll®

snipped-for-privacy@nosam.org wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

The JD Power survey only records defects reported in the first 100 days of ownership. It goes no further than that.

Buick owners are not likely to put on much more than 24 miles during those first three months (12 to church, 12 to the grocery store). How many things will go wrong in 24 miles?

And Lexus is a Toyota brand name. Lexi are all Toyota, through and through.

Reply to
Tegger

Buick #1??? Yeah, right. Someone obviously got paid off.

Reply to
sharx35

Actually, this was the long term dependability survey - problems reported in the previous 12 months after 3 years.

Ironically, some of the domestic cars that did well on the survey have been discontinued - Century, Regal, Sable, Olds Bravada, Olds Silhouette, Mercury Monterrey, Thunderbird.

Reply to
Ray O

To me the most significant thing about the latest JD Power survey is the trivial difference in most makes. I doubt that the difference in the top 10 or 15 are statistically significant, especially when you factory in the effect that the owner's perception has on the results.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

The survey being reference is the 2007 Vehicle Dependability Study (See

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) . This study "is based on responses from more than 53,000 original owners of 2004 model-year vehicles. The study was fielded from January through April 2007."

This of course is total BS. You have no idea of the relative usage of Buicks and Lexi.

Well except there are some Lexus models that have no Toyota equivalent sold in the US. I agree with your basic premise. There is no reason for Lexi to be significantly more dependable than Toyotas, or for Buicks to be more reliable than Pontiacs, or Mercurys to be more reliable than Fords. This supports my feeling that there is very little difference in the dependability of any of the major makes. When you are splitting hairs, small things, like the owner's preconceived biases, can effect the results.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

You have to love Toyota apologist. Buick has always done well in the surveys. And I've always thought they did well (relative to other GM brands) because the owners bought the advertising BS. Of course I think exactly the same thing about Lexus owners.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

"C. E. White" wrote in news:46bc5f7a$1@kcnews01:

So I was wrong. Shoulda checked first, no?

T'was a joke, mein Herr.

Buicks are also your basic salesman's car. Some of them put on huge mileages.

Most of the mechanical parts are common to Toyota and Lexus (engines, transmissions, brakes, suspensions, steering, etc). That's the important part and is how Toyota keeps costs down.

It's also what gets them in trouble when something goes wrong. *Everybody* gets afflicted.

These days that's probably true. But when I read statements from working techs that "even a pit crew" couldn't keep some of these things on the road, I'm inclined to have a different view.

What can also have a profound effect is what sort of vehicle the parts are installed in. The same engine installed in a truck and a luxury car is unlikely to have the same longevity in both places. A vehicle owned by a young kid is not likely to receive the sort of gentle treament a retiree will give it, even with identical mechanicals.

Reply to
Tegger

I didn't go back and look at the Lexus models for 2004 but in 2004, except for the Rendezvous, Buick seemed to be selling cars that had been in production for at least 5 years each (and in the case of the Park Ave, 10?).

I would hope that, after 5+ years of practice, Buick would be building a

*really* good car.
Reply to
DH

Buick builds a fraction of the cars Toyota does. If you were to look at GM rather than Buick, I think you would see that, as a whole, GM rates lower than Toyota. What did it say about Chevrolet?

Since Toyota builds 90% of it's cars under the Toyota brand, there is a larger sampling. GM probably only builds 1/6 of it's cars under the Buick brand.

Also, Toyota has had to ramp up production to meet demand. Their 'failure rate' is probably the same or near what it has always been, but with more units coming off production lines, there are more 'lemons' getting out there.

They could probably cut this by closing the North American assembly plants...

Reply to
Hachiroku

Be careful what you wish for...

I don't think it's Toyota's NA plants, I think it's probably Toyota's NA suppliers. That is reputed to be the situation with the early, apparently troublesome 6-speed transmissions (no link handy, take with grain of salt).

There's nothing wrong with the capability of American workmanship but the priorities assigned usually preclude a quality job. Earlier today, I posted a link and a note about Lexus' obsession with perfection. Notice that? That's not in NA but who's to say it couldn't be?

Also, with the falling dollar, we may well be Toyota's low-cost manufacturing center. For that reason, I don't think they'll close plants but they may decrease production a bit if NA demand falls off.

Reply to
DH

Yes, actually, you are probably correct, especially since Toyota USA and Canada uses a LOT of Delco parts.

You would think that, rather than Toyota using Delco parts, GM would learn from Chrysler...

While doing some heavy-looking-on while my friend's son in law was fixing his Jeep, I noticed, first, the same transmission that I have in my Supra, and a number of NipponDenso parts under the hood, the most glaring one, the same alternator as in my old Celica...

However, the first US Camry I drove, with

Reply to
Hachiroku

Good call, Cathy. Way to put that insipid troll in his place.

Reply to
High Tech Misfit

The other difference between Lexus and Toyota, besides equipment levels, is the amount of sound insulation.

Lexus dealers tend to be more adept at keeping customers happy than Toyota dealers, and GM dealers have been ahead of Toyota in this department for some time. While dealer treatment is not supposed to be a part of the survey, I think explanations to customers have a pretty big impact on customer satisfaction with their vehicle.

Reply to
Ray O

The LX470 is based on the same chassis as the Land Cruiser.

The IS, GS, and GS sold in the U.S. do not share a chassis with Toyotas sold in the U.S.

AFAIK, the ES has always shared the V6 with the Camry.

Reply to
Ray O

I am sure that is true. But why isn't it true at the Honda place next door? The waiting line at the Honda dealer only had a fraction of the number of cars waiting for service that were waiting at the Lexus dealer. I'll bet the Honda dealer has sold at least 10 times as many cars as the Lexus dealer. It may well be that Lexus owners are much more likely to take their cars back to the dealer for routine maintenance compared to Honda owners, but 10 times as likely?

On the other hand, the BMW dealer (also in the same line of dealers) had cars pouring in like rain, but then BMWs owners get 3 years maintenance included in the purchase price. Maybe the Lexus dealer includes free maintenance in the deal as well - I don't know. I just know there were an awful lot of cars waiting for service of some kind, compared to the number of Lexi I see on the street. One thing I have heard about the Lexus dealer was that they would actually come to your house and pick up your car for routine maintenance and leave you a loaner. I can't imagine how much this must cost, but it sure seems nice. On the other hand, the little garage near my Mom's will do the same thing - even if you own a Chevrolet (well except for the loaner part).

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Couldn't you make the same sort of argument about many Toyota products?

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Isn't the problem with the 6 speed automatic transmission PCM programming? Ford is using a version of this same transmission in V-6 Fusions and I've not seen any complaints about it in that application. And since the transmission is built by a mostly owned Toyota subsidiary, isn't it still a "Toyota" problem?

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Sure, but they don't fabricate all the parts themselves.

But the focus was on Hachi's speculation about closing down Toyota NA plants (presumably moving production back to Japan) to fix quality issues. I would not expect that. Given proper priorites, training and resources, US workers will build to the same quality spec as anyone else (we do it). If Toyota's methods or priorities are poor, workers in Japan won't do any better. Local management can make a difference but it's probably easier to "fix" local management (and I don't mean fire them but help them) than close a plant.

If it was a supplier issue, perhaps work is being done to fix purchasing (or incoming QA assurance, depending on how they're organized) at the NA plants.

Reply to
DH

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