Brake bleeding issues, need help

Man I can't get decent pedal! 3/4 the way down and then if if your lucky you won't have to pump em up. I've got to be doing something wrong!

Start: bought the car 73 super, had mushy brakes and pulled to right when hard braking, installed new hoses, front wheel cyls(one leaked), and shoes all around. had decent brakes it seemed but more bleeding was needed but it was cold out. Then we had a big snow, i had chains on the rears and only the fronts would brake, car would only stop on the ice with handbrake applied, which meant the rears werent getting eny braking. So installed a new master cyl and rear cyls. bled more cans of fluid through them, still 90% of the time !!WOW!! pedal all the way to the floor and no brakes!! pump em up and give yourself plenty of stopping distance. More bleeding: gravity bleeding, pressure bleeding, pump pump pump hold bleeding, every method described in every webpage and service manual ever written,(except vacuum) still no changes.

OK maybe I got a bad brazil master cyl. so another 40 bucks for a new one, installed and no changes, bled a big can through them, still no air out of the whel cyls but still surprise all the way to the floor pedal.

next step, drive it over a cliff!!

Any one got any ideas? or similar experiences that could help caue I'm stumped.

ps, my ol 68 never had this kind of issue ever, i always gravity bled for a few mins and all was well. it still has one inch pedal before solid braking after last overhauling the brakes on it a few years ago.

Reply to
Cletus
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excessive travel is usually caused by brakes not properly adjusted, too much pedal freeplay, or air in the lines... seems you have the last one taken care of....

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

Adjust ALL 8 brake shoe adjusters tight. Check the master pushrod, it must have a tiny amount of freeplay before it engages the master cylinder piston. Check pedal height while pressing pedal down. I think I have even seen some wrong brake wheel cylinders installed. Bleeders are never supposed to be below the hose.

If you have a firm pedal then it is an adjustment problem. Adjust the adjuster to allow the drums to turn. Supers must have the adjustment somewhat tight in the front and all adjustment screws need to be oriented in the correct direction.

If you pedal is not firm then it is an hydraulic problem probably. You will need to isolate the wheels and some do it by carefully clamping down on the brake hoses.

NOW are you sure your front to rear brake line is not leaking?

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

I tried the "adjust all brakes tight method" thats one of many methods i've tried, same results. I've lenghthened out the pushrod as far as it will go and no difference, I've got the brakes adjusted up, same method I've always used on all my other VW's

Dave, I'm fairly sure i have no leaks, its not losing any fluid or is there any dampness around the tunnel area under or inside the car.

Reply to
Cletus

aside from the fact that you shouldn't do that, it sounds like the master cylinder is leaking internally... with the pushrod adjusted all the way out you should have a four wheel parking brake...

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

Agreed... Adjust to the proper free play, never all the way out.

Les

Reply to
Project Magnet #1

Regarding the pushrod: With the pedal fully released, the pushrod MUST have free play before it contacts the master cylinder piston. You have no hope of ever getting the brakes to work right if there is no free play. The spec is 1mm at the master cylinder.

After setting that, you may still need to bleed the master cylinder. There may be air trapped inside it that doesn't get pushed out into the brake lines. A pressure bleeder might be able to clear it, as it pushes fluid through in a continuous motion, as opposed to the pulsating nature of pedal pumping. You can try to crack the lines open at the master cylinder too and bleed from there.

Reply to
Jan Andersson

Yea I know man, i WAS DESPERATE to try anything lol! its now back in its proper position

Reply to
Cletus

My push rod is back to normal, Ilenghthened it a while ago to desperately try anything, I will try to bleed the master again with pressure, then do the "adjust all brakes tight method" and see how it goes. I didn't make a "slit in hose with bolt in it" bleeder hose but have one with a built in check valve that "shouldnt" let air back in the system. My pressure bleeder is a Pepsi cap with hole in it with

1/4 inch air hose stuck in, that when screwed onto the resevoir pushes fluid through. I keep pressure on until clear fluid comes through for a good bit, then tighten bleeder screw under pressure(its a long hose, can reach all wheels). i got these methods from the group here and I thank you all for that. Man I can't believe I'm having this much trouble on this simple job that in the past has been so easy!!! It ain't like I'm a VW newbie, been drivin em daily since the mid 80's.
Reply to
Cletus

What this means to me is if your home bleeder DOES let air back in, or fluid for that matter, when you push the pedal to force the air in the lines forward, if the check valve does not close properly then when you pull your foot off the pedal you're pulling the air bubble(s) right back into the system again. Even if the tip of the hose is immersed in brake fluid, if there is an air pocket close to the master cylinder and that check valve is failed, all you are doing is pushing the air fore and back..you could pump all day and never get it out of the system.

Can you have a friend come over and do a "2 man bleed" and see if that solves it?

Chris

Reply to
Hal

yea Chris, that is the plan today, I'm gonna have 3-man!. my boy pumping the pedal, my girl manning the air hose and me on the bleeder valves, lol see how that goes. I'll let you all know.

Reply to
Cletus

Are you sure you have the correct wheel cylinders in the front and rear? Bleeders in the rear will be higher than the brake hose. Bleeders in the front will be higher than the brake hose too IIRC. THIS is where I think that I found some wrong wheel cylinders installed in a Beetle or Super Beetle.

There are some clamps you could use to clamp on the front brake hoses to see if the problem is in the front. ALWAYS be careful with the clamps so you do not damage the brake hose even internally. ;-)

I have seen protective caps installed on the plastic tubes letting fluid into the master and sometime the caps can get jammed in the reservoir hoses. BUT you are getting a good flow of fluid through so cancel that idea!

So lets see you have all new: Master Cylinder Wheel Cylinders Brake Hoses Brake Shoes

All of the metal lines are in good shape and no leaks. Adjuster screws are all correctly oriented with it sloping downard and adjusted tight right now.

I would vote that the front wheel brake cylinders are incorrect, but you will tell us! ;-)

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

sloping downard...

Thanks dave! you would have to introduce another nightmare!! I'm pretty sure they are right becaue if I remember right the brakes wont back off enough to get the drum on if they are "upside down". I'd hate to take the drums off to check! And the wheel cyls are probably right with bleeders on top and etc, with the super being slightly different, at least listed seperately in the catalogs.

I've pressured and pumped some fluid through them already today and got some more bubbles out of the sys, damdest thing the pedal feels solider? is that a word? with the dam bleeder screws open!

thanks,

Reply to
Cletus

OK Dave tried the 'pinch off the hoses" stunt, hey guess what, with the fronts pinchedoff the pedal stops after 1 inch or less travel!!!

so after the kids soccer game i will pull the hubs and see the the h is goin on, we will walk to the game LOL... see ya

Reply to
Cletus

OK narrowed it down to lthe left front, using Daves "pinch off the hose" method(VERY CAREFULLY) so as to not ruin my new hoses.

good hard pedal with it pinched off, with it open the pedal is 3/4 down or more, SO now the question is what to replace first, or what to do next, Opinions Please, talk to you all tomorrow...

Reply to
Cletus

either the shoes are way loose, you are losing fluid, or you forgot to put the drum on...LOL...

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

Hmmm I did not think about the drums being off! lol BUT maybe Beetle shoes inside of a Super Beetle front drum might be just like the drums are off! ;-)

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

I guess it is an adjustment deal, Adjusted over and over last nght, also going to check the fluid flow from the T onward to the left wheel, didnt have time today to do much of anything other than drive it awhile with muchy pedal but with no surprise dead pedal like it was doing before. gettin there, thanks everybody

Reply to
DADDS

Anyway after all that claptrap, it was an adjustment issue, the left front was WAY out of adjustment. the "scraping" i heard was phantom and the wheel not turning freely was a tight bearing. So the upshot basically is, FOR SALE: one slightly used master cyl, 2 rear wheel syls, 14 gallons of used brake fluid lol, and loss of my license as a certified VW know it all...

I think the shoe was slighly out of "center" on the adjusters and wheel cyl slots. I kept tightening and slamming on the brakes and finally centered everything and now the brakes are as good as any 49 year old junker around lol...

Reply to
Cletus

well congrats to you!!! we knew you could do it................eventually! lol

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

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