Brakes, or lack thereof

May 17, 2004 11 Replies

I'll admit I haven't done much Googling on this yet, though I have dug through my Muir and Bentley manuals.



Here's the scoop. A month or so ago, I replaced the trailing arms on the '69 (thanks to Aircooled.net). Of course, removing and replacing the brake drums was the order of the day. I had adjusted the star wheels to get the drums off and hadn't gotten around to fully adjusting them correctly once put back together.



Starting from that point, the car would pull initially to the right when brakes were applied. Also, the first long application of the brakes in the morning (I live at the top of a hill) usually had the brake pedal slowly creeping to the floor. If I would release and reapply the brakes, the pedal was back up towards normal.



I've driven the Bug off and on since then (mostly not, though). However, my daughter has occasionally driven the Bug here and there and complained of no problems. A little more than a week ago, I took the Bug for a short spin around the block and nothing much had changed. I decided to make a mental note to adjust the star wheels soon.



Yesterday, my daughter's normal car decided to act up at a friend's house, so her friend drove her to work. My wife and I went to take the Bug to her at work so she could drive home. The wife drove my truck and I followed in the Bug. First thing I noticed was that when I stepped on the brake pedal, it immediately traveled about 3 inches before *anything* happened. In other words there is three inches of play in the pedal. I really had to stand on the brakes to get it to stop at the bottom of the hill.



I stopped at a nearby gas station and saw that the brake fluid resevoir was pretty empty (in a dark parking lot, it was hard to tell, but I stuck my finger way down into the resevoir before I felt any wetness. I went in, bought a small container of brake fluid and topped it off. Pumping the brakes did no good. Still, you could stop the car, given enough room, so I took the car on to my daughter and warned her about the brakes. Her reply was that she had noticed that the last couple of times she drove it but forgot to tell me.



When she got home last night, I brought the car into the garage, put the front up on jackstands to adjust the stars and noticed that the left-hand brake line was wet. It also had a bubbled up spot under the top layer of rubber and was soft. There were small cracks in the outer casing. The right-hand one was cracked and dry. Mental note to replace the front brake hoses post-haste (yes, I know, go ahead with stainless steel lines). I went ahead and adjusted the star wheels according to specs. Still three inches of play in the brake pedal, though. In checking the rear hoses, they both look fairly new (like the PO had replaced them soon before selling the car to me).



Besides a brake hose that is obviously about to fail and another not far behind it, what would possibly be causing the drop of the pedal so far before brake application occurs? It is important to note that even with both front brakes adjusted, the car still slightly swerves to the right when the brakes are first applied. Applying the parking brake while rolling slows the car evenly (no pulling).



Have I toasted a master cylinder, too? Or possibly just have a lot of air in the system from the bad hose? Sorry for the long post - just wanted to get all the pertinent details in.


Well, if the brake line is leaking badly then wouldn't that side not brake very well? So pulling to the right would be expected if the front left line is leaking. I don't think you can tell about the master cylinder but I'd replace the lines and go from there.

swollen brake hose, grease or brake fluid on shoes or pads, warped drum or rotor, can cause pulling to one side. parking brake is usually only on the rear wheels-- so no pulling effect.

master cylindar ran dry ???--- gotta prebleed the m.c. then bleed the brakes after all repairs are done.

i'm just finishing up a friend's car that needed just about everything related to the braking system replaced-- even 90% of the brake lines. real pain in the *ss!!

First off the brake system is by far the most important system on your car.

you problaby have air in the system coupled to the fact that the adjusters arent set right. but yes the system is probably sucking in air causing your pedal to drop. DONT drive it around until you are SURE that its fixed correctly!!!

replace those rubber flex lines - @$12 ea. and wheel cylinders @ $12 ea. I'd replace all of them. never do just one side or just front or back especially if of unknown vintage : ) for around $100 you can replace some important parts that should last a long time.

small price to pay for something that may save your life or someone elses, not to mention the cost of body work if you slam into something.

when it comes to brakes you need good parts in good working order.

**************************************************************** dragenwagen 1966 Type I - Daily Driver 1969 Type I - Undergoing heater channel replacement
formatting link
"Old VW's Don't Leak Oil, They Mark Thier Territory."****************************************************************

Sounds like you have a brake system made up of unknowns.

1) Replace all the soft lines. Yes, even if they still "look OK".

2) Unless you know the age of all four wheel cylinders, replace them all.

Why replace all four flex lines and all four cylinders? Because that way they will all be the same "age" and fresh. And you won't have to guess how old any particular part is.

3) Examine the shoes and drums at all four corners. Replace any shoes (in pairs please) that are worn. Take the drums to a brake shop. They can measure the amount of material remaining and tell you if the drums can be reused.

Except for the drums, all the above parts are inexpensive. These days, the skills needed to replace them is virtually a prerequisite to owning one of these cars.

The moral of the story is: Where brakes (or any other safety-related system) is concerned, NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER (did I mention never?) stop short of a complete job. Better to leave the car on jackstands than to button it up incomplete.

Max

Turns out I found another fact, that would explain just about everything.

The left-rear cylinder has gone. There is brake fluid all over the inside of the wheel and the tire.

I'll take everyone's advice and replace all four lines and all four cylinders while I'm at it. The pads are all fairly new (I've inspected all those). I'll have the drums checked for remaining material while I'm at it. I may replace the rear pads since the left side ones are obviously soaked in brake fluid now. Fortunately, the local FLAPS carries replacement shoes, in stock.

I don't think anything is wrong with the master cylinder. I think all the play is due to the rear cylinder being blown. Nowhere for the pressure to build up for the rear brakes, since it is just spraying fluid out. Since it is the left-rear wheel, that would also explain (further) the initial pull to the right on braking (the left-rear is not braking at all, essentially).

---------------------------------------------------

'Thinking' isn't quite the same thing as 'knowing.'

The vehicle has obviously not been properly maintained which means the only safe assumptions is that EVERYTHING is bad... until a tear-down and inspection proves otherwise.

Chop it, drop it, slam it, chrome it... turn it into a total POS... that's your business. But bad brakes make your ride everyone's business.

Brakes are easy. Plenty of help here if needed.

-Bob Hoover

good rule of thumb.... what ever you do to one side.... do to the other... depending on the age of the brake pads might as well to go ahead and replace both sides to be on the safe side...

Good call.

BTW, a good way to purge the old fluid is to open the bleed-valve at each cylinder, unhook each line from the master cylinder and apply compressed air. Note that any fluid in that particular line will come out the open end in a rush. You may want to plan for that. ;-)

Actually, since you will be replacing the flex lines, you could just relieve each new hose into an empty milk jug before connecting it to its wheel cylinder.

Max

...that would make a damn fine sig =-)

...Gareth

Excellent point, Bob. Since I'll have most of the braking system in pieces, might as well check/replace the M/C.

On Tue, 18 May 2004 20:38:46 -0500, "Malcolm" ran around screaming and yelling:

and since you are replacing hoses, wheel cylinders, and shoes, don't forget new "hardware" kits...(springs, shoe hold down springs, cups, and pins)...don't you love the little nickel and dime stuff? JT

Join the Discussion

Have something to add? Share your thoughts — no account required.

Didn't find your answer?

Ask the community — no account required