Boiling a battery

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looks like Max hit it...........two defective batteries


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Hopefully you've gotten the correct info. Tbone tends to muddy the water, even when he's got it right.

First step is neutralize acid in the area, which you've done. Next, there is a product that appears under names such as "Extend", a pinkish fluid that turns black upon application. This will neutralize the rust, as it chemically binds (so the label says) to the iron oxide. The metal will then be black. Spray the box with rubberized undercoating. This should help keep it free from rust for some time, and is easily reapplied.
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Max

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wrote:

The only thing other than voltage that controls the current flow into a battery is RESISTANCE. Resistance is affected by state of charge, but on a longterm basis, more by battery condition.

You are WRONG. If the ignition switch is turned off, and the doors closed etc, the only load on the battery from the SYSTEM would be ECU keepalive current of several miliamps - which is TOTALLY off the scale of relevancy when doing a load test.
Also, the ONLY dependable test of battery condition is a battery transconductance test - the most common unit in use being the "midtronics" analyzer. It WILL accurately test a battery with as little as 9 volts open circuit voltage (and possibly less) and tell you if it is good or bad.

An AVR test is simply a load test with the engine running and is used to check the performance of the charging system on a daily basis by thousands of mechanics around the world. However, the BATTERY load test is generally the first test performed on a starting/charging system if a transconductance tester is not available. If the load test (or transconductance test if available) passes and the battery is up to proper charge (in case of passing a transconductance test) the starter draw test is usually next. If starter current is within range, and the battery cranking voltage does not drop below spec (usually 9.6 volts on older vehicles) the battery voltage recovery is checked (if transconductance test was not done) to see how quickly the unloaded battery returns to 12 volts.(usually after leaving headlamps on high beam for a few minutes) Then the engine is started and the charging system tests performed. If the battery has failed it's tests, the results of the charging system tests will be inconclusive. Then the engine is started and the

Except if you have a poor ground connection, in which case all reslts will be skewed. So - the RIGHT way to do the load test is with connections TO THE BATTERY with a load drop test across the connection from the post to the cable if the battery is not disconnected.

And a battery that has lost plate material due to age and or abuse develops a LOW internal resistance, and draws MORE power from the charging system, resulting in a lower charging voltage at a given charging current. So does a battery with warped plates and/or damaged separators.
Also, a sulphated battery WILL offgas during charging more than a good battery at the same charging current.

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TBone wrote:

You saying that the charge rate of a battery is defined by the voltage since it has EVERYTHING to do with how much current? Dang, I coulda bought an el cheapo charger and charged my battery just as fast.
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Yea, if the el-cheapo charger could maintain the voltage as a steady DC voltage, you would be correct. The problem is that most cheep chargers do not have the current capability and the battery will pull their voltage DOWN while charging. I would think that YOU of all people would know this. Am I wrong?
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"miles" < snipped-for-privacy@nopers.com> wrote in message
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I think you missed the part where Miles just whacked you upside the head.
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TBone wrote:

Yes, you're wrong. A dead battery will pull more current than a charged one. The charge voltage will be about the same.
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wrote:

Locked armature starter current on a 59 olds was305 amps - and no load current was 100 amps. On a 61 olds it was 370 locked armature, and 120 no load.
No load current on a 1983 Chrysler 360 was 90 amps, and locked armature a mere 180 amps. Most 4 cyl and V6 engines today run closer to 45 amps no load, and 150 locked armature - with average cranking current less than 120 amps for less than 5 seconds. That is LESS THAN POINT TWO AMP HOURS of battery capacity required to start the engine on todays vehicle, whereas my old '57 Fargo usually cranked for 15 seconds at 200 amps - which figures out to POINT EIGHT amp hours. If the trunk had a 60 amp generator on it, and charged at the full rate, which it would not do, it would charge for about a minute. At 30 amps, it would charge for about 2 minutes. At 15 amps, 4 minutes. In real world operating conditions the battery would reach a full state of charge in less than 10 minutes of charging at below 10 amps.
On today's cars, you are dividing that time by 4. Frankly, I cannot see this being an issue with regards to battery water usage.

Many times my van sits with a 200ma draw (2.4 watts) for an entire weekend ( say 3 days or 72 hours) and starts with no problem, and the battery recharges with no gassing or water loss. Batteries generally last me about 3 years or more - my Toyota went 7 years on the original, but most are ready (have been) to be retired by the end of 4 years.

I'll speek for myself. Battery voltage with the engine running, system charging, and whatever load applied to the system to reduce charging voltage to 12.6 or less. 12.6 volts with the charging system functioning means the LOAD is drawing the entire output of the charging system. Any less means the load is drawing all the system can produce PLUS it is drawing from the battery.
Not a very likely situation - which is my point.
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Maybe he'll listen to you Clarence, but don't bet on it.
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wrote:

I know about batteries. One thing the OP did NOT tell us is what the initial charging voltage is after a restart, and preferably what the charging current is. Initial charging voltage on a healthy partly discharged battery will be significantly below 14.2 volts. As long as the charging voltage is within parameters, a healthy battery will not gas excessively even IF the battery state of charge is down. Now, a battery with basic health issues is a horse of an entirely different colour. I'm still voting for 2 sulphated or otherwise worn out 3 year old batteries

Unless you have significant system resistance both will be the same (within no more than 0.2 volts)
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wrote:

He said he used "another 3 year old battery". What is the average lifespan of today's batteries? Just under 3 years - so the chances are pretty good he has TWO bad batteries.
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Sorry to have caused such grief here at the NG. My son just called, the car wouldn't start on it's own, but jump started OK. Tomorrow I'll bring the car home (I'll be putting a new battery in it for the drive home as the second battery (from my father-in-laws Ram Charger (360 CID)won't start the car now) and start testing some of your solutions. I plan on monitoring the 1. battery voltage (across the terminals), and 2. the "sense" lead voltage (at the alternator, using the alternator ground), on the trip home, on two different digital volt meters. It's about a thirty mile drive, so something should show up. Anything else I might want to check for on the drive home. On a passing note, would using the old battery for the drive home be a better idea, and keep the new one incase I need a jump start.
Thanks

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A bunch of us are betting you've already solved the problem. Tbone coulda told ya that if he had thought to check across the terminals.
--
Max

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What in the hell are you talking about?
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....And not a friggin thing new.
Going for 10 in 30 minutes?
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That is because there is nothing new. You keep saying the same dumb things in the hopes of somehow making yourself look right when you are simply wrong and not man enough to either admit it of just have the dignity to simply walk away. Pretty much the same thing you accuse me of all the time. I guess this makes 7.
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"Max Dodge" < snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net> wrote in message
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Dammit, missed the tenth one by 5 minutes.
And still nothing to say. Prove me wrong.
Say something new.
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Max

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Don't worry about it, this crap happens all of the time. You can use the new battery and have someone closely monitor the voltage on the ride home. The last thing that you want to do is cook a new battery.
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"nirodac" < snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Excellent point. One that would be found if the OP disregarded Tbones insistance that checking across the terminals is unnecessary. 1) A static check after sitting a while would show a low voltage, thus enhancing Tbones idea of too much starter draw. 2) A check WHILE charging would confirm proper voltage to the battery. 3) a check after being charged, and another an hour later would indicate battery condition. 4) a load test wouldn't hurt.
All of these depend on checking across the terminals, not to ground and the positive terminal. But hey, all three of us are full of crap.
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How would checking across the terminals determine a bad battery???

The battery would have to be just about dead before the voltage would be low enough to see it and would have NOTHING to do with starter draw since the alt charges it back up right after the started hammers it. Care to try again?

No shit and why I suggested keeping a volt meter hooked up while driving.

True, but it wouldn't say what was hurting it.

Yea, that would tell you the actual condition of the battery.

Every one of these CAN be done with a connection between ground and the positive terminal of the battery but why would you want to.

Who exactly is this 3 you keep talking about.
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