Which electric car will win?

A pity that GM killed the EV-1, now all they have is the GM "Short Circuit"
Which electric car will win? http://tinyurl.com/34kc623
2 vehicles have radically different approaches
BY MARK PHELAN FREE PRESS AUTO CRITIC
The Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf will square off later this year in a battle that could determine the course of the 21st-Century auto industry.
The Volt and Leaf electric cars take two radically different approaches to reducing oil consumption and emissions. The compact Volt will cover 40 miles on a charge and use an on-board generator for longer trips. The subcompact Leafs bigger battery pack promises a 100-mile range but wont be capable of longer trips and will require hours of charging time after a long drive.
The vehicles prices will also differ significantly. Nissan has announced the Leaf will retail for $25,280, after a $7,500 federal tax credit. Chevrolet has not revealed the Volts sticker price, but its expected to cost around $32,500 after the same tax credit.
The Volt arrives in dealerships this November. The Leaf follows a month later.
The cars represent multibillion-dollar bets by GM and Renault-Nissan. The winner will be the early leader in a new technology thats expected to eventually dominate the worldwide auto industry. Electric cars have their ups and downs
You can't get lower than zero. You can't drive farther than forever.
In a nutshell, those are the key selling points for the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt, respectively -- the first new electric cars expected to sell in large numbers in a century.
The cars promise different things, but they'll be direct competitors as General Motors and Nissan-Renault try to define what a modern electric vehicle is, what customers should expect, how much they'll pay and whether they should accept any compromises compared with conventional cars.
The company with the winning approach will have an early lead in the technology likely to dominate the 21st-Century auto industry.
The Leaf promise: Zero, zilch, nada direct petroleum consumption and exhaust emissions. Your car will never burn a drop of gasoline.
The Volt guarantee: No emissions or oil used on the 40-mile and shorter drives that constitute daily driving for around 70% of Americans, and absolute certainty you'll never be stranded by a dead battery.
The Volt and Leaf's underlying technical approaches are radically different.
The Leaf is a pure battery-electric car, or BEV. It has lots of batteries and can go up to 100 miles on a full charge.
Its drawbacks are:
It takes eight to 20 hours to recharge the batteries, depending on whether you install a 240-volt outlet for your car.
Electricity is not like gasoline: You can't assume there'll be a filling station around the corner when you run low, and topping up drained batteries takes hours.
The 100-mile range assumes good weather and driving conditions. Very hot or cold conditions, fast driving, or stop-and-go traffic may reduce the Leaf's range considerably.
"Range is a big deal," said Joe Phillippi, principal of AutoTrends Consulting in Short Hills, N.J. "The Leaf can't be anybody's sole vehicle."
The Volt, meanwhile, uses a smaller set of batteries and should cover about 40 miles on a full charge. It charges from an outlet in about half as much time as the Leaf.
A small gasoline-powered generator produces more electricity for longer trips. You never have to stop to recharge, and most drivers will only occasionally need the range-boosting generator. The Volt is called an extended-range electric vehicle, or E-REV.
The Volt's disadvantages are:
It has two power sources -- batteries and a generator -- so it will cost about $7,200 more than the Leaf.
It does not allow the driver to completely divorce himself or herself from the possibility of ever consuming oil.
GM and Nissan speak of their differing approaches with evangelical zeal.
"It's the first affordable zero-emissions vehicle," Leaf product planning director Mark Perry says. "The question of its range is an issue of perception more than behavior. If you charge overnight, you wake up with 100 miles' range. Ninety-five percent of the world's drivers go less than 100 miles a day."
GM's counterpoint:
"No battery-electric vehicle can match the Volt's 350-mile range," says Tony Posawatz, GM vehicle line director for electric vehicles. "The Volt can also operate in all temperatures, climates and geographic areas" because the generator supplements its batteries.
The cars will appeal to different types of customers, but the automaker whose approach draws more will have an early lead in the electric-vehicle race.
"The Volt has the standard range people expect from a car. That's an advantage," said Jim Hall, managing director of 2953 Analytics in Birmingham. "The Volt could conceivably be a person's primary vehicle. The Leaf is a perfect second car for most people."
GM will build the Volt at its Detroit-Hamtramck plant. Nissan will initially import the Leaf from Japan and build it in Tennessee starting in 2012.
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On 25/07/2010 11:40 AM, Jim_Higgins wrote:

The name is well deserved. GM short circuited $177 billion of wealth as defunct debt.
Nissan will win because they are far less expensive. But neither will do really well as the concept is wrong. Also GM has a stigma attached to it, picking peoples pockets via taxation.

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I believe that Mitsubishi has been trial marketing one in Japan for a couple of years, and it will burst onto the American scene soon.
I also think the concept is wrong, ill advised.
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(not at top speed) and a cost of about 35,000UKP or in your currency about 53,030USD I personally can't see many takers.
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wrote in message news:Mt43o.23983

They will not sell for that much here. More like US$25-35,000. The range is arguably equal to the Jolt, or maybe a little better, when the electrical component of the equation only is discussed.
I dont personally think that any of them are viable in the long term.
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On 25/07/2010 8:21 PM, hls wrote:

Will not sell many here. -30C I expect to see none of them on the road. Something like the SmartCar, they hibernate for 1/2 the year, and it has some heat.
Probably similarily through the south, I would hate to drive in a dark one to Vegas in July. A bus makes more sense.
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On 25/07/2010 7:36 PM, Clive wrote:
capital difference is 115,000 of free fuel and no electric vehicle @ $4 /gallon.
And the A/C works and will not signifiganly drop your range. I will not even have to go into what batteries will cost in 4 to 12 years. Finacially, these vehicles make absolutely no sense at all. Even the resale will suck.
Pure electric like a Zenn at under $10k has more sense as almost nothing to maintain on them. Pure battery driven, no double the drive train maintenance and no transmission to crap out.
They will sell a few to the fad buyers with more money than brains.
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I'm serious about putting one of these in my garage and thot it would be Leaf -- all electric. Then did homework.
I've got a spare 240volt/30amp ganged breaker in my entrance panel. Leaf needs a minimum of 40 amps for an overnighter. New entrance panel is $ 2500 over and above the two-K for Leaf's adapter. Underground to the house is now aluminum. That will have to be upgraded for the local power company to connect. Unknown bucks for that. Leaf doesn't pencil out.
I think it's Volt or a hybrid. I'd guess I'm not alone. -- pj
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What am I missing? Why can't you just swap out the 30A for a 40A? Why would that require a new service for a 10A gain? Typical clothes dryer is on a 40A breaker so unless you only have 60A service, you should be good to go as long as you don't dry clothesa dn run big air conditioners at the same time.
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40A branch requires a larger wire size. Home panel boxes and it's service are rated for total draw with a reserve. Safety for overload is mandatory, there is no don't use something to be able to run something else. That's the extension cord mentality that burns down houses and codes are set to avoid that risk. Older homes used to be only 100A service as a standard. Today's homes are at 200A service as a standard. 40A 240V branch to recharge a car for 20 hrs, ha ha ha, wait until the power bill comes in. Power plant's on overtime now........
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This is something that I have been concerned about as long as electric cars seemed to be becoming a reality.
You KNOW that the government and the utility industries are not going to stand still for a reduced cash flow, as they have us pretty much where they want us right now....
This will be no different.
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On 26/07/2010 10:11 AM, hls wrote:

But if a signifigant amount of people used electricity, it will not be long before you get brown outs and levies to increase capacity.
Then the cost of lithium, 400lbs per vehicle...if I thought this farce would not fall flat on its ass I would buy lithium futures.
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Changing the wire to accommodate 40A is still not a big deal. You are correct about the safety factor. That means you can pull 80A safely. The dryer and car are on breakers totaling 70A, but actual draw is probably 50A leaving plenty for normal house duties.
It may be nice to upgrade to 200A service, but I don't think it is NEEDED in most cases. He may not have a dryer or electric range.
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On 26/07/2010 3:43 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Huh? That is illegal without doing the drops to the right gauge of wire. Might even require going right to the pole.
The man was 100% right, do your research or get burned.
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We don't have enough information to know if he is right or not since we don't know what equipment he has and what service he has. . What is illegal? Changing a breaker? As long as you use the correct wire, it is perfectly legal. If he has 100A service, a total load of 80A is OK.
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Many major players are coming out with pure electric cars now. There is no competition between pure electrics and the rest including hybrids. A hybrid like the Volt has all the drawbacks of the combustion engine and is only a parenthesis in history.
The Prius hybrid has more or less used up all the space needed for a hybrid.
The Prius has had its moments and one thing of interest is that the distance of pure electrical range is increasing all the time and it is coming as a plugin also now.
Compared to the Volt there is no competition there either because the Prius has already a proven record.
Once the pure electrics begin to have a history it will be obvious that they last longer and do not need maintenance in any manner compared to combustion and hybrids so the total cost of ownership will be a lot less.
This trend has already started to emerge so the knowledge base is starting to tell the public what to do.
All kind of electrical vehicles is showing people that the time has come to give the combustibles a rest.
This will happen in ever faster pace the coming years and decades.
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Bjorn wrote:

GM Volt = GM "Short Circuit".
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On 26/07/2010 4:25 AM, Jim_Higgins wrote:

And a lot of wasted taxpers wealth.
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All kind of electrical vehicles is showing people that the time has come to give the combustibles a rest.
This will happen in ever faster pace the coming years and decades. ***** I have never been very good at predicting the future.. If I had been, then I would be a millionaire now.
Time will tell.
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