Disabling ABS

Not sure what country you're in but I'm pretty sure that you were never given the option of disabling the ABS on any car fitted for the American market. I've never seen that "feature" on any US ride that I've driven or owned and I've been driving long enough to have read "Coming in the future, a system to prevent skidding in cars" in Popular Mechanic, and for you real old timers.. Mechanix Illustrated

Without putting on my coat and going outside to check one of several owner's manuals for my current fleet, the only two suggestions I have are...

1. Take a look at the fuse block and see if there is a fuse specifically for the ABS system.
2. DON'T remove it to try this. However, if you feel you must, practice what the automotive advertising agencies do. Practice on a closed loop track not on the public roads.

"experiment" with the abs fuse.

no, that is correct. abs stops you skidding - it's a popular misconception that you stop quicker. you'll see a disclaimer to the effect in the owners manual.

I've never seen a car of any make that provided a switch to turn off ABS. What make was that?

I agree with you about ABS on ice & snow. It is decidedly worse. Long slow stops gentle enough to keep the ABS from engaging are pretty much the only way you can make it stop.

To disable ABS on a Honda, just pull the fuse. The ABS warning light will stay on & you will have normal braking. Since VSA also depends on ABS in its implementation, it will likely be disabled as well.

Good point. The purpose of ABS is to help the car maintain control during panic stops, not necessarily to help the car stop more quickly. In many instances, you may stop more quickly without it, but you may also skid off the road because you can't steer.

Dan D '07 Ody EX Central NJ USA

Seems to me you need winter tires. My 2004 Civic stops well enough in snow with ABS and winter tires.

Dano58 wrote in news:8a1b32cc-d396-459a-b2e1- snipped-for-privacy@c16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:

ABS on ice and gravel and stuff like that is definitely NOT what it's cracked up to be. People tend to take more chances, knowing that they've got ABS, then they wonder why the car takes forever to come to a stop and they end up rear-ending somebody, or landing in the ditch.

There is a tool for use in the prevention of skidding off the road because you can't steer. It's called the "brain". Each human being comes from the factory with one of those. Due to manufacturing tolerances, some are more precisely finished than others, but all of them are functional to some degree.

Rather than ABS, I prefer the use of the "brain", and other OEM human features like "caution", "self-preservation", and "intelligence".

Perhaps I'm mistaken about having a "feature" to disable ABS on rental cars I've used. That was my recollection but, since the rentals were generally in the summer, there wouldn't have been a need to disable. After 40+ years of driving without ABS, however, I've had my share of slips, slides, and skids, and still felt more comfortable without ABS than I do now. To each their own, I guess. It's nice to have the steering control so I can choose between the ditch, the oncoming lane, or the car in front of me but I'd prefer to be able to stop a bit more quickly and avoid all three. I imagine winter tires could be an option, although I've never used them in the past. Anyway, just a curiosity item. I actually thought the VSA/ABS would be a good idea for winter driving and bought the Honda because none of the local Toyota dealers had any Camry's on the lot with Toyota's (optional) equivalent of VSA. Of course I hear that Toyotas have their own issues with stopping . . .

"Erehwon" wrote in message news:hmgbc3$226p$ snipped-for-privacy@adenine.netfront.net...

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AFAIK, you'll not find a car sold in America (other than vintage) that is not ABS equipped with ABS. VSA (electronic posi-traction) is selectable and not available on all cars (AFAIK) but they are two separate animals.

In a panic stop mode, even with ABS, you retain control and steering. A locked wheel skids and with a resultant loss of steering. A rolling wheel gathers no moss and it also allows for continued maneuvering.

Universal introduction of ABS messed up a number of things in my life. Former law enforcement, it removed a number of high speed/low speed maneuvering options from my somewhat limited repertoire of "Hey, watch this!" and also made crash reconstruction more difficult and time consuming since we rarely had tire marks to use for the calculation of minimum speeds. That said, I still swear by FWD and ABS (both messed up my stunt driving) but I like them regardless.

Only car I have with RWD is my Corvette. After all, I'm not a fanatic about FWD

On Mar 1, 10:22=A0pm, Dddudley wrote: snip

snip

Electronic stability control From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Electronic stability control (ESC) is a computerized technology that improves the safety of a vehicle's stability by detecting and minimizing skids. When ESC detects loss of steering control, ESC automatically applies the brakes to help "steer" the vehicle where the driver intends to go. Braking is automatically applied to individual wheels, such as the outer front wheel to counter oversteer, or the inner rear wheel to counter understeer. Some ESC systems also reduce engine power until control is regained.[1] Electronic stability control does not improve a vehicle's cornering performance; rather it helps to minimize a loss of control. In the United States, NHTSA estimates 5,300-9,600 traffic fatalities could be avoided if all passenger vehicles were equipped with the feature.[2] According to the IIHS one-third of fatal accidents could be prevented by the technology. [3]

By 2012 all cars sold in the USA MUST have ESC. Most have ESC today. And there's no switch to turn it off as there is in your (and my 2003) Corvette.

Although the brakes will still work if you disable the ABS (for instance by pulling the fuse), you will not have the equivalent of a proerly designed non-ABS system. Most vehicles with ABS use the ABS to provide proper balancing of the braking force between the front and rear. Vehicles without ABS either include a mechanical proportioning valve, or size the brakes to provide proper front to rear brake balance. Since ABS equipped vehicles usually use the ABS to provide the front to rear brake balance, if you disable the ABS you are more likely to get in a situation where the rear brakes lock first. Cars often spin when the rear brakes lock first. Properly designed non-ABS systems are designed to have the front brakes lock up first. When this happens, the car usually plows straight ahead. Plowing straight ahead is usually preferred (and safer) than spinning.

Ed

"Tegger" wrote

This has been my first winter driving on snow in 35 years. Even the initial coating from a developing snowstorm sent me sliding. I did not know what to expect. Scared to death, I knew to just slow down at least so that I wouldn't have to use the brakes so much. When I did have to brake, it was slowly and gently. ABS didn't help one bit, and it activated much sooner than it ever did when driving on dry pavement. So I prefer the good ol' controlled-driving method.

My 2004 Accord sedan of course doesn't have the newer electronic stability what's-it-called, and I debated whether or not to buy a set of snow tires, but I declined... this year.

Howard in upstate NY

"C. E. White" wrote in news:hmj8pe$t8g$1 @news.eternal-september.org:

Or when the driver lifts off the gas in a vehicle with rear-driven wheels. This is functionally equivalent to activating the rear brakes only; in slippery condictions, this is virtually begging for trouble.

Which is also why most road cars' handling is set up for understeer.

Wrong. On a Honda, you get exactly what you would have without ABS.

"E. Meyer" wrote in message news:C7B2983B.182F3% snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net...

How do you know that? Are all the parts exactly the same, except they insert an ABS pump in the hydraulics? Is this comment even meaningful, since now most (all?) Hondas include ABS as standard?

I looked at the parts catalog for older Hondas and at least in some cases the master cylinders and proportioning valves are different depending on whether you got ABS or not. For instance a 1996 Honda Civic 2Dr EX without ABS used Proportioning Valve P/N 46210-S04-962 (see

, line 4). A 1996 Honda Civic 2Dr EX with ABS got Proportioning Valve P/N 46210-S04-852 (see , line 4). It can be advantage to use the ABS to handle the brake balance. ABS can adapt to the vehicle load and provide maximum braking force for all four wheels (please note you could just use rear wheel only ABS to provide the enhanced proportioning function). If you depend solely on proportioning valves and/or brake size to handle the chore, it is likely your rear brakes aren't doing all they could if you vehicle is loaded to the max. This is probably not a big deal in most passenger cars, and when it is some non-ABS vehicles compensate for the lack of ABS by adding a rear proportioning valve (a dump valve of sorts). This valve has an activating link tied to the rear suspension. Under severe braking the rear end of a lightly loaded vehicle will raise up more than the same vehicle when heavily loaded. The mechanically activated proportioning valve takes advantage of this difference. When the rear of the lightly loaded vehicle raises up under braking the link between the suspension and the valve will activate the valve and limit rear brake application to prevent rear wheel lock up. It is not as effective as ABS, but it does allow the rear brakes to be larger to handle heavy loads while reducing the chance of rear wheel lock-up when the vehicle is lightly loaded. If you are interested in seeing what one looks like see:

Ed

Four ABS equipped Hondas/Acuras & the FSM for each is how I know. What Hondas do you have experience with?

Note I am only commenting on the ABS. The VSA (vehicle stability assist) adds a level of complication to it and since the two are integrated on the newer Hondas, I suspect the overall effect of disabling it will be like stepping back 20 years (I still remember how the '86 Aerostar would lose it in the back if you just looked at it funny. That was one scary vehicle if the road was the least bit slippery).

Interesting you should pick out a '96 for the discussion as I owned a '96 Odyssey and my daughter had a '95 Integra that used the same system. ABS in '96 Hondas is a passive system that did not routinely regulate anything until and unless a wheel sensor asked for it. It certainly did not participate in routine proportioning of the rear brakes. The part differences you found relate to the way the ABS system was spliced into the main brakes.

The ABS that Honda used in '96 was so problematic and expensive to repair that I suspect it no longer works in most of them that are still on the road. It failed in my '96 Odyssey and in my daughter's '95 Integra within a few months of warranty expiration and the $1500+ repair cost meant that it stayed that way. There was (is - the Odyssey is still on the road) no difference in braking feel or performance in either of those cars vs. anything else I ever drove. Certainly no tendency for the rear brakes to lock up on either one of them.

1997 Civic. I still have the shop manual but the car is gone.

Did you actually try to lock the brakes? The difference would only become apparent under severe braking. The ABS doesn't provide proportioning in the same manner as a proportioning valve. It handles it by relieving pressure to the rear brakes when rear brake slip is detected. Traditioanl proportioning valves operate differently. Except for the type with a mechanical control like I showed in one of my prior posts, they just provided a fixed split between the front and rear brakes. I wonder how the ABS and fixed proportioning valve interact.

Since the ABS system still includes a proportioning valve, it seems that Honda soes not depend on the ABS operation to provide proportioning. Others do.

Ed

Absolutely. As the ABS was showing signs of failing, that was one of the TSBs relating to that vintage ABS - exercise the ABS and sometimes it would clear and start to work again.

Once the ABS stopped working altogether no amount of exercise would make it start working again. Neither car ever locked the rears first, always front first.

Fear can be a good thing in unfamiliar territory, Howard. Like Tegger says, the brain is the most important component in driving.

That said, you have to understand that the ABS system is designed to keep the wheels rotating no matter how hard you press down on the brakes while retarding (braking) the wheels rotation. It basically wants to "lock up" the wheel and then back off just enough so that it will continue to rotate slightly.

Rotating wheel can be controlled. Locked wheel is like a snow disk or saucer (remember those?), it goes wherever it damn well pleases depending upon the resistance it meets. It couldn't care less where YOU want it to go.

Since the coefficient of friction on ice and snow is so much less, even slight pressure on the brake will bring the ABS system into play much more quickly than on dry or even wet pavement. All that means is the system is working as designed.

Try this: Next time you have some decent (if there is such a thing) snowfall, find yourself a nice clear parking lot with lots of room and no cars. Run it up to 15-20 m/h and stand on the brake pedal, feel the ABS kick in and stay in, and steer the car where YOU want it to go.

Now, find the fuse or relay for the ABS system and pull it and repeat the experiment.

I think you'll put the fuse/relay back in place and marvel at the advent of ABS.

ABS takes some getting used to. There's no doubt about it. This would be especially true in your case since you haven't driven on snow/ice in

35 years and, probably, have been fortunate enough and attentive enough to have ever stood on the brakes on dry or wet pavement.

When ABS was being integrated into the US car lines, there were a LOT of very serious crashes in the law enforcement community - not just in snow and ice but dry pavement as well. Many of us "old dogs" had been trained to USE a skidding car (ours) to advantage in certain maneuvers. Lack of transitional training, reliance on old tricks that no longer work with ABS in place, were a recipe for disaster.

That's no longer the case.

FWD with or without the stability control is the cat's ass in snow. New snow tires probably won't make much difference in your driving experience as far as braking goes, but could do wonders for your acceleration off the line. I notice one heck of a difference in deep snow between my '06 Accord (kinda sucky) and my wife's '05 Odyssey Touring (might as well be AWD) but really, that's only in accelerating and going through unplowed streets, etc. Stopping? Same old, same old no matter which one I'm driving.

Of course it did. It activates as soon as your wheels lock up. That's the point. It will ALWAYS activate quicker on wet, icy or loose pavement much faster than it would on dry pavement.

First, buy a set of Blizzak's for the winter. They will grip in the snow much better. Then, take the car to a big empty parking lot, and beat the hell out of it until the braking becomes second-nature. It really is nice once you're used to it, IMO. It provides much better control when braking on icy roads.