Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda

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Michael Pardee wrote:


I wasn't talking about the Prius, I was talking about your hypothetical vehicle which you say would have a much smaller conventional engine than does a Prius.
John
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Right - the basic principle is to size the engine for the largest continuous output power required. Making it smaller will cause exactly what you describe (running out of power on long, hard uphill slopes) while making it larger is just a waste. Making a hybrid with a 50 hp engine (as I used as an earlier example) works just fine in the flatlands but would get a poisonous reputation for more general use. I used 50 hp as an example for the illustration of moving a car around in town in comparison with using a 240 hp engine. I realize in looking back that confused the issue. Sorry about that. It is useful to note that the driver wouldn't necessarily notice the difference in performance between a 50 hp engine and a 100 hp engine except for the hill climbs.
Mike
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Not necessarily. It would depend at what RPMs each engine produced its maximum torque. It is after all tongue, not HP, that get the vehicle going from a stop and what keeps it going, at speed, up a long grade. The Pruis uses the electric motor when staring and adds it on grades because electric motors develop their greatest amount of tongue at start up. That is why most Toyota are under powered, compared to many of its competitors vehicles. . Toyota, like many import brand engines are designed to produce their HP at higher RPMs than the engines in domestic brands, that is why they run out of tongue rather quickly at speed.. The reason is domestics sell mostly automatic tyrannies in the majority of their vehicles that are equipped with tongue converters. On the other hand Japanese brands which use the same engines in cars sold in other countries that have a much larger percentage of their vehicle equipped with manual tyrannies. With a manual tranny the gear selector can be used to stay on the tongue curve to climb grades, particularly long grades. Most drivers of automatics are want to run their cars in the lower gears to stay on the tongue curve. Follow a Corolla equipped with a manual tranny up a long grade and it will quickly drop off the prevailing speed, unless the drive reverts to lower gears. Follow one with an automatic and you will see it runs out of gears trying to maintain speed, and the speed quickly drops off, because few drivers are willing to run their engines at the much higher RPMs in lower gears needed to maintain the prevailing speed.
mike hunt
"Michael Pardee" . Sorry about

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no gearing issues because the engine only drives a generator, and the electricity powers the car. We don't have the power electronics yet for serial hybrids, but another decade should get us there.
(Getting back to the subject line...) Presently, Honda's hybrids are what are usually called parallel hybrids. The power train is conventional except that the engine is assisted (Honda calls it Integrated Motor Assist, or IMA) by the electrics. Toyota uses an inventive scheme they call "series-parallel," where a part of the engine torque is directed to the wheels and part is used to generate electricity to power the electric motor. That's why the Prius has no transmission per se (and can't have one), just a skewed differential and a pair of motor/generators. They call it an Electronic CVT. On hard uphill climbs the engine runs up to the maximum engine speed (4500 rpm in the pre-2004s, 5000 rpm in the current ones IIRC) and puts out full rated power with a minimum of drama, completely independent of the car's speed. At lesser power requirements the hybrid computer adjusts the load on the generation part to control the load on the engine, so all aspects of the engine operation are under computer control: mixture, ignition and valve timing, throttle and load... even whether the engine is running or not.
Mike
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They're not underpowered. You might try surprising us with facts for a change. But I doubt you will.
I drove through CO, UT, AZ and NM last spring in my '01 Sienna. 5 passengers and camping equipment and it never dowhshifted on all the freeways through the mountains (Eisenhower tunnel and Raton pass included). Next time, I'll keep track of the Aerosaurs, Windstoppers and Freeloaders I breeze by as they're sucking wind in the Rockies.

Actually, you'll find that the 2005 Sienna 3.3L-V6 develops its greatest torque at a lower RPM than the Freestar's 3.9L-V6 does.* It just provides more maximum HP at higher revs because the torque doesn't fall off as fast at higher RPMs with the Toyota engine as it does with the Ford. I suppose the Toyota engine is designed more carefully and machined to closer tolerances, so it's not shaking itself to pieces at >5000rpm.

* - Source: Edmunds.com. http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/toyota/sienna/100604394/specs.html ? tidmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..8.Toyota* http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/ford/freestar/100542582/specs.html ? tidmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..8.Ford*
Oh, look, the Toyota develops more power than the bigger Freestar engine, too: http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/ford/freestar/100542582/specs.html ? tidmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..8.Ford*
What else did Edmunds have to say about the Freestar? http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/ford/freestar/100542582 / researchlanding.html
"Unrefined powertrains with less horsepower and worse fuel economy than those of competing minivans, low-grade interior materials, hard-to-remove second-row seats..."
By the numbers... Vehicle Curb Weight Power lb/hp MPG Sienna 4140lbs 215 19.3 Decent Freestar 4275lb 201 21.2 Sucky
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I was not specifically referring to any particular vehicle or brand but you just provided your own source that proves MY point, thanks. HP at the proper RPMs in relation to the torque is what is most important not HP alone. The Siena needs to be run all the way up to 5600 RPMs to develop its 215 HP far over its maximum torque of 222 FP at 3600 RPMs The Freestar develops its HP at well over 1000 RPMs lower at only 4250, much closer to its maximum torque of 263 FP at a RPM higher than the Sennia. Much better attuned at using the torque available in each example you cited, and the reason Toyotas are generally underpowered compared to its competitors vehicles whether you agree or not is immaterial. There are nay number of other domestic vehicles you could research and you will find the same high HP to tongue disparage
mike hunt

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So? It still develops more power than the Freestar and the torque to do it comes on at lower RPMs. Ford would love to declare a higher HP number for the Freestar, no matter what the RPM, but their crappy engine's power output falls off dramatically above 4600RPM as it starts to shake itself apart.

So the Toyota downshifts if necessary. Except that I haven't noticed that mine ever downshifts on the freeway, unless I really want to accelerate. It's not underpowered.
If the Ford's maximum HP and maximum torque are, as you point out, close together, that describes an engine with a narrow power band - one that would require more frequent shifting.

So you say, but you never bring out any facts and figures to support your allegations. Fact is, you're a blowhard.

Don't think the Freestar's engine is junk? Don't take my word for it. Check with Edmunds: http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/ford/freestar/100412870/researchlanding.html "Unrefined powertrains with less horsepower and worse fuel mileage than most competitors..."
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The fact is you are the blowhard. You supplied the facts yourself but you still don't understand the relative difference between HP and the ideal application of tongue to HP. I'll waste no more time trying to enlighten you on the subject.. Ford could easily develop more HP for that engine by winding it up if they chose to, but the torgue available at the normal driving rage of 2,000 RPMs makes for a better performing engine. If you are satisfied with the power your vehicle has that is your opinion and your business. The fact is those in the industry knows otherwise, Toyotas are generally underpowered vis a v their domestic comparators, whether you happen to agree or not. is immaterial.
mike hunt

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Ah, the unsupported "underpowered" assertion again. Can'te leave it alone, can you? But you can't supply any facts, either, can you? You're the bllowhard.
The '05 Sienna has more power than the '05 Freestar. Remember what Edmunds had to say about the Freestar: http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/ford/freestar/100412870/researchlanding.html "Unrefined powertrains with less horsepower and worse fuel mileage than most competitors..."
The Camry is one of the most popular cars on the market. Toyota actually makes money selling them. Most people think the 4 is at least adequately powered or they wouldn't buy them and Toyota wouldn't make money selling them. Friends who drive them think they move out just fine (and none of these owns one of the latest with VVTi and a better power-to-weight ratio than ever before).
Case closed.
Of course, we're talking about normal sedans and other passenger cars, not fuel-wasting penis-substitutes such as the Mustang GT. If you really need your fuel-wasting penis-substitute, and consider anything less than a fuel-wasting penis-substitute to be underpowered, well. we can't help you there.
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Camry may still be the number one selling car but it was never the number one vehicle sold in the US. The F150 is the number one seller and has been for nearly thirty years, at just about twice as many sold as the Camry. Camry is aparently not as popular as it was last year either. Cold it be becse they are underpowered? The Camry was the ONLY vehicle in the top five to lose sales in 2005, it dropped around 20,000 sales, falling from third place to fourth below the Dodge Ram. The others all gained sales, including the Honda Accord, which is actully made in the US, not merely assembed of imported parts like the Camry
VEHICLE Sales Y-T-D 2005 Last Yr. '04 Rank Chg.
1 Ford F-Series pickup 760,929 740,817 1 +2.7 2 Chevrolet Silverado pickup 616,139 575,886 2 +7.0 3 Dodge Ram pickup 409,252 362,122 6 +13.0 4 Toyota Camry 383,478 403,136 3 -4.9 5 Honda Accord 371,307 367,210 5 +1.1

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Mike Hunter wrote:

Wow! I never realized that the top 3 selling vehicles in America are pick-up trucks. That's enlightening. Rich
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2006 is certain to take away a lot of the thunder from Mr. Hunter's argument. Large truck and SUV sales are dropping like a rock while sedan and small crossover SUV sales are increasing.
Somewhere in the next couple of years Toyota is going to pass GM in worldwide sales volume and will never look back. If the Delphi bankructcy results in supply distruptions to GM, which is highly likely, then 2006 will be the year of the changing of leadership for sure.
Years ago GM unseated Ford and has never looked back. GM did it with a better product range and agressive salesmanship. Unfortunately Detroit has had it's eye off the ball for too many years now.
John
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How did you arrive at that conclusion? The ONLY vehicle in the top five to drop in sales was the Camry, all the others have gone up. Trucks and SUVs still account for half of all sales combined and there are a lot more car models than light truck models on the market. Perhaps you meant to say in my opinion? ;)
mike hunt
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Part of the reason the 3 pickups (they are not trucks-a dumptruck is a truck, an 18-wheeler is a truck) made it to the top 3 is because Chrysler, Ford & GM used the lure of "employee discount" to pad the sales. Honda and Toyota used their normal discounts for this time of year. GM lost over a billion in the last quarter. Analysts say both GM and Ford will be out of business by 2015. The only sales they will get are the typical "must buy American" sheep.
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Once again you are confused. The sales figures are for the F150 & F250, the Silverado and the Ram trucks for sizes up to 8,500 GVWR. IF all light trucks were include, the total figures would be even higher.
Trucks over 8,500 like the F250HD and the F350 are not counted in the individual sales figures. Light trucks like the current leaders has nothing to do with discounts, light trucks have been outselling cars since 1975 when the majority of car went to FWD. The Ford F150 is by far the best selling vehicle had has been for nearly thirty years. When SUVs are included light truck sales have exceed car sales for several years.
Perhaps you might want to do some research before commenting further on a subject of which you apparently have little or no knowledge, or at least say in my opinion.
mike hunt
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So the top two passenger cars are Toyota and Honda? Conclusion: people like them more than they like Fords, Chevys and Pontiacs. Maybe they think they're a better value. Maybe they hate wasting money on gas and would rather get a car that gets good gas mileage than one that gets mediocre gas mileage.
Gee... Maybe Detroit should think about that.
By the way, I notice you didn't provide a reference. We're supposed to believe your figures?
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dh wrote:

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Again you are confused I don't present opinions, what I posted are fact that are available to anybody willing to do the search. Although Toyota and Honda have the number one and two selling individual model cars, and Ford has the best selling individual truck GM sell more cars than Ford, Toyota and Honda as well as more trucks than Ford, Toyota and Honda . As to fuel mileage GM offers far more vehicles that get over 30 MPG than does Toyota. GM even offers a full sized V8 Chevrolet that gets nearly 30 MPG. Better do some research if you are going to continue to post on this subject
mike hunt
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