designers...

Hear, hear!

To which you can add those horrible bolts with the 'tapered' heads that really need a single hex socket to get hold of them.

Austin Shackles wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Don't you love britisch engineering?????? Or, did you expect anything else.. :-)

KR, Martin.

Aye, took me an hour to tighten the fanbelt(s) on the old RRC i had!

You need arms like inspector gadget! Mind you, have a look under the bonnet of a WRX, boxer engine & a pain in the arse to even check the loil level!

Nige

-- Subaru WRX (The Bitch)

Series 3 Landrover 88" (Albert)

"Christ's fat c*ck"

Modern cars are not designed for maintenance, only for quick assembly. If you're working on the production line everything makes perfect sense. it's only when people like you have the temerity to want to service it, or change one component that a problem arises.

Alex

That's probably unfair. I don't necessarily think that it's a nationality thing.

Strangely, I had one of those rare illuminating moments when you realise that someone has designed in a feature to make dismantling easier on a Land Rover product (admittedly of some vintage).

I very much go along with Austin's view that today's designers just do not have the practical experience to realise what an abortion they are creating. Many wouldn't know one end of a spanner from the other let alone be able to visualise how to go about dismantling their creations.

The water pump bolt behind the pulley is an excellent example. By the the time that you've worked out that the pulley has to come off, the serpentine belt has already been removed so you're looking for a way to hold the pulley while you loosen the bolts. So put the belt back only to realise this is a smooth surface pulley and the belt cannot support sufficient torque to allow you to undo the pulley bolts...... (A bit of leather between the belt and the pulley did the trick in the end.)

My day job - you've guessed!

When I was a lad (20 years ago!) I worked at a main dealer for BL, we serviced all the BL cars. They just brought out the Montego Efi. One needed a new alternator, you had to take the erngine out to change the alternator ffs! When i say out, it needed to be moved by about 6 inches upwards. Classi;c case of bad design!

Nige

-- Subaru WRX (The Bitch)

Series 3 Landrover 88" (Albert)

"Christ's fat c*ck"

On or around Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:11:11 +0000, Dougal enlightened us thusly:

spanner on bolt head, drift against spanner, smart tap with a medium-sized smiter worked here. 'course, a rattle gun would do it except that to use one of them on it you'd have to remove the radiator. Mad.

It's not just a British engineering thing, I think there is at least on Ferrari that needs the engine out just for a service, like £K's before they start!

I once went to look at a Nissan 300zx twin turbo, this was when they were recently out, it was about a year old at the time.

I checked the service costs and was informed it was a 12 hour job to change the spark plugs, apparently most of the top end of the engine had to be stripped down to gain access. I decided on something else..:-)

I also had a 2.5 V6 Vectra on which the oil cooler leaked, showed all the signs of a blown head but is a well known problem on these engines...Vauxhall response to the failure of this £80 part "We usually write the car off when that goes - it's a £3000 repair"....the entire front end of the car has to be disassembled, bumper, rad, air con system, headlights, wing linings, entire top of engine stripped all to replace a known badly desinged oil cooler sited in the Vee of the engine.

I've now got a New Mercedes (leased), I never thought I'd buy a new vehicle...but the peace of mind a warranty gives you is worth every penny of depreciation...:-)

Alan M

In message , Austin Shackles writes

ON the plus side Austin once you have done a couple it will only take you 45 mins to change that gasket. Which is much better than having to take the timing case off like you do on the 200's.

My only complaint about that set up is that that all the m8 bolts which you use a 10mm socket on are very soft and easy to damage. Which makes the pulley removal slightly more interesting if someone has rounded a head.

As for finding the belt wont hold the pulley still when you try to undo it, I use a pair of mole grips to hold the sides of the pulley. They in turn will jam against the ali bracket and lock it up. All with no damage to the pulley.

All good fun

On or around Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:04:51 +0000, Marc Draper enlightened us thusly:

Oh, I grant you it's better than on the 200 TDi, and in fact the whole thing is better. It's just that with almost no extra effort or cost it could have been better still.

On or around Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:59:17 +0000, Austin Shackles enlightened us thusly:

The only thing I have against the serpentine belt in fact is that a single failure loses you all the systems at once. However, things with separate belts for everything are quite rare.

You don't carry a spare? Shame on you!!

Put another way, used cars are overpriced?

Huw

In message , Austin Shackles writes

Disco II, water pump, Alternator, PAS pump, ACE pump, Aircon. All of one belt !

Look on the bright side at least you will know it has fallen off !

Down side is that even if you have a spare belt, if the old one as gone completely you will take hours to work out how it should fit .

On or around Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:41:56 +0000, Dougal enlightened us thusly:

heh. Wouldn't have helped, with the last time: water pump failure making it throw the belt, due tot he pulley being misaligned.

I couldn't agree more. My last "proper" job was at a well known "luxury" car maker. I had to attend a few Packaging Reviews (where bits are discussed to see if they fit). Never was maintainability taken into account in the design process - only production. Since the new car was entering a market where Cost Of Ownership was likely to become a pruchasing factor I was amazed that no one cared, and indeed look quite puzzled when I raised the issue, that being able to change a water pump etc *should* matter. All that mattered was costs to them, not the customer. Ex Rover "designers" there where completely baffled when I pointed out that there is a notable lack of fully kitted out workshops in most of the world, including the developed world. In their defence, if that's the word, it should be noted that most of them had not long since completed degrees at universities where all that mattered is flashiness using the latest technology. They really did think that having red calipers or not was a serious design issue! It seems their degrees never mentioned any other uses that vehicles may designed for, and certainly the life of a Defender was a complete unknown to them.

Richard

Indeed, I couldn't agree more.

HAH! Try talking to young students training to become designers in the aviation world. We had a group of them visit Lossiemouth some years ago and I showed them some of the more interesting engineering design c*ck-ups Propulsion-wise on the Tornado in a vain attempt to try and get them to think as engineers and of the problems of access. They were visually stunned at some of the things they were shown and all agreed that they personally would cringe at the thought of having to replace the bit I was referring to at each stage.

Personally, I'd like to give a good hard kick-in-the-slats to the Honda Accord (and no doubt others) designers that came up with the ridiculous scenario whereby you have to completely remove the front hub (invariably destroying perfectly serviceable, expensive bearings in the process) to change the front discs!!!!! Are they blind to the fact that most cars have the discs on a bell-mount and they fit on over the top of the hub, obviating the requirement to split ball joints, disconnect and press out halfshafts etc etc just to change a pair of flaming discs?? AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A first prize of absolutely nothing goes to whoever works out what car I replaced front discs on recently...... Badger.