Regassing an R12 a/c system.

Had my '90 Celica with an R12 a/c system regassed on friday. After 4 years if was not getting as cool as it had in the past. The interesting point is that it was regassed with R134a, without modificatuion.

I'd rung around during the week and been referred to a local garage that could regas with R24, a drop in replacement for R12. Unfortunately they'd run out of the gas, and were having trouble getting any more, so it was back on the phone again to another Co that advertised regassing R12 systems.

Had quite a chat with the guy, and when I asked if he was using R24, he said no, he refilled them with R134a. I expressed surprise, and told him that as far as I knew R134a could not be used in R12 systems. Prone to leaks etc. He replied that that was what he thaught until he spoke to a chemical engineer at a trade a/c meeting, when he was told that the real problem was that the seals in an R12 system could not take the higher pressures of a R134a system, but if less R134a was used, the pressures would be lower, and within an R12 systems limits, so it wouldn't leak. At the same time mineral oil should be added rather than the sythetic oil required by a true R134a system. He went on to say that he'd been regassing R12 systems in this way for months, and so far had many satisfied customers.

Of course he could be giving me a load of old bull, but he seemed genuine enough, and so far the a/c is working well. The true test I suppose is if it's still working as well after year or more.

One point in it's favour if it does work as well as he states, is that R134a is a cheaper gas than R24. I paid £60 plus VAT, for a mobile service at my workplace, and it was a complete job. The system was purged for near half an hour, before it was refilled with gas, oil, and dye. A Co some distance away gave me a quote for an R24 regas of £115 inc, and I had to take the car to his premises. Mike

Reply to
Mike G
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Problems include lack of cooling mainly due to smaller condensers on r12 systems, lack of cooling in high ambient temperatures which is when the 134 will overpressurise, particularly in heavy traffic (which is when you most need aircon)

134 leaks through r12 pipes and seals

the oil for 134 is water soluble and attracts water, this then mixes with the 134 to make an acid which rots the system from the inside (many mondeos suffer this)

I hope your system works ok for a long time, but don't bank on it.

Mrcheerful

Reply to
mrcheerful

[snip the other interesting stuff]

How well does it work, Mike? I'd been told R12 systems filled with R134 didn't usually perform well. I'm interested, of course, for the SD1...

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

So far after 2.5 days, it's still working well. :-)

I've always understood the same about putting R134a into an R12 system, as well as reading that it wasn't suitable from the POV of the increased chance of leakage. So far though, no leaks and it seems as cold as it was with R12.

The secret seems in knowing just how much R134a to put into a R12 system. I get the impression that most a/c engineers are unfamiliar with the technique, or not prepared to take the chance. According to this guy, he's also regassed quite a few imported american cars with R134a that still have an R12 system. Some of them months ago, which are still working well.

TBH I'm quite interested in the results myself. What he says seems logical, about the pressures, seals etc, but only time will tell. I'll keep you posted. If it only lasts a year, at £70.50 inc, I still reckon it's worth it.

Of course another problem might be persuading someone local to try the technique, and from what I gather many a/c engineers haven't got the facilities for R12 disposal. or the adaptors to allow the R134a charging unit to connect to an R12 system.

The Co I used was Faygate Air Conditioning, based in Crawley W Sussex. The guys mobile number is 07711 016249 Might be worth giving him a ring. Seems like a very open guy. Quite willing to talk about the technique he uses. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

You can still find R12 gas around if you look hard enough.

Reply to
Knight Of The Road

Do you know that from experience, or are you repeating what you've been told?

I was told the same thing, but according to the guy who filled my system, it is because it is assumed that the system will be filled with R134a at the recommended pressure for R134a which is much higher that that for R12..

I was told that the correct oil for R134 system is a synthetic oil, which presumably is compatible with the seals used in that type of system. When filling an R12 system with R134a he doesn't use that oil. Instead he uses a similar mineral oil as that which was used in an R12 system.

You may be right, but as I see it I have little to lose. If it has to be refilled every year, I'll be quite happy. I don't consider £70.50 expensive even for the few hot days/weeks a year when a/c is really useful. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

I know you can buy it in cans from eBay etc., which is OK if you just want to top up I suppose, but presumably oil is lost along with the gas, so unless that is replaced as well, I don't see topping as a long term solution.

I believe at one time they allowed reclaimed R12 to be reused in the UK, but AFAIK that situation has changed, and it's use is now illegal. That's what I was told by an 'Autoclimate' member. A nationally based franchise of a/c engineers. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

apparently the best bet is to get a Russian lorry driver to bring in a bottle of r12, they still make it there!

mrcheerful

Reply to
mrcheerful

Maybe a top-up is all that's necessary to get an R12 system working again., but I'm not alltogether happy with that idea. How long will it last, bearing in mind that how successful it is, long term, is dependant on there being enough oil remaining in the system to adequately lubricate the compressor bearings and seals. Ideally the system should be purged, then refilled with correct amount of gas along with a measured quantity of oil. Legally that can't be done using R12. From the little research I've done on the subject, it would appear that the best option is to have the system purged and refilled with R24. Supposedly a legal drop in replacement for R12. This is what I would have preferred, but as I said in an earlier post, the only Co I could find that could do that, wanted £115. They also wanted me to leave the car with them for the day, and they were about 15 miles away, which apart from the inconvenience, would have entailed me taking time off from work, as they had no overnight parking facilities. I.m not saying that what I've had done is a satisfactory alternative to refilling with R24. Only time will show if that is true, but based on what I've been told and experienced so far, I have high hopes that it will be. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

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