HHO generator on a diesel?

Does anyone know whether its ok to run one of those HHO generators on a diesel engine? My father-in-law is building one for his turbo Saab car, and swears that they are used in big rigs (diesels) and that they
improve the fuel mileage on them. In case anyone doesn't know what an HHO generator is, it's basically an electric circuit that ionizes water into hydrogen and oxygen, then injects the gas into the air stream of the intake.
My thought is that the diesel runs off of fuel being injected into the air (and only air) in the chamber. If I add more oxygen and hydrogen into the air, it will burn more readily, but it seems that it would throw off the timing of the ignition.
Anyone have any input, or comments? Does anyone use one of these on a diesel (or gasoline) engine currently?
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DougS wrote:

In my opinion, the energy required to split the H2O molecules would be more than you are likely to get back but, if using solar or other free source of energy, it indeed could be feasible.
It reminds me of a guy way back who told me that he had a 5 HP electric motor attached to the grid and was planning to attach a fan to it to blow air onto a wind turbine. It seems that he expected to get more energy out than he was putting in. I disabused him in a hurry.
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What is yor father in law's experience with HHO? What kind of fuel mileage increase has he recorded? I am interested in this too for diesel.
I do know someone who is a mechanic who has friend who does that for business and claimed to work real well... but he himself did not tinker into it as his buddies are working out all the kinks.
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"but it seems that it would throw off the timing of the ignition."
No, a diesel's ignition occurs when the fuel is injected into the cylinder; that occurs regardless of what gases are in the cylinder.
However, a gasoline engine will differ because the fuel is injected into the intake air before any compression from the piston occurs so that air - fuel mixture may preignite - always a problem with gas engines.
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On Jul 27, 5:08 pm, "-->> T.G. Lambach <<--" <"T.G. Lambach at NoHamorSpamcomcast.net"> wrote:

I hate to say it because I'd love to believe it would work but RF is right. If more power was being returned to the engine than was needed to generate the electricity to split the water molecules, you have achieved the impossible -- the makings of a perpetual motion machine. These contraptions will always use more energy than they create if you are simply drawing power from the alternator. An exception, as RF noted, would be if you were to get the extra power from a solar cell, or if you had a system that generated electricty only as a means of slowing the car down (like hybrids when they coast). But, in this latter system, the power draw would have to cease once you were using the engine to accelerate again so you would only generate surplus power when braking which likely wouldn't last long.
All this also begs the question of whether it wouldn't be more efficient to use the power from using the solar cells or braking dynamo to power an electric motor to drive the car. I'm guessing it would be since that's what they chose to do with hybrids but I don't know.
On the other question, Tom, couldn't the Hydrogen predetonate on the compression stroke since it would enter the cylinder with the air on the intake stroke unlike the fuel?
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We are not trying to generate a ton of Hydrogen... only a tiny amount that does improve the efficiency of burning the fuel.
The real test of H production is hooking up a balloon to the HHO generator and if the balloon rises... H is produced.
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Tiger wrote:

If this tiny amount of H2 could react with another chemical in the combustion chamber to produce an additional exothermic chemical reaction, then it is possible that this process could make a contribution to the usual combustion.
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Just to clarify for those that are making assumptions about the energy requirements, and ability for it to work at all. I does work. At least, my father-in-law has got his working. Currently, he has it attached to a '93 Saab 900 turbo (2.0L). It gets about 24-28 mpg normally, and he has pushed it up to 28+ with his initial tests. I haven't talked to him in a couple of days, but I heard a few minutes ago that he's added a second container to the system to help produce more gas. From what he's told me, and what he's observed, the system doesn't produce an enormous amount of hydrogen gas. The first container he used actually sucked in from the engine vacuum overpowering the sidewalls of the container (cheap plastic). So, there is no pressurized production of hydrogen here, just enough to enrich the air/ fuel mixture.
Yes, it does take more energy to convert water into hydrogen gas, but we're not running the car on hydrogen (or even electricity), we are running on gasoline (or diesel as the case may be), and we simply want to make this combustion process more efficient. The hydrogen allows the air/fuel mixture to be more lean and still obtain the same power from the fuel as before. If you don't understand that, the more lean the mixture (air/fuel) the less fuel (i.e. gasoline) you use.
Gasoline engines aren't the most efficient machines at burning all the fuel that enters them. When you pressurize the air (add a turbo) you get a better efficiency that normally aspirated engines. When you add hydrogen to the mixture, it gets even more efficient. Thus, less gasoline used per mile driven. (more mpg)
Interestingly, this link says that the engine is more efficient while idling than under full load when using this concept, which is where you really need to cut fuel usage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement
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That doesn't sound particularly promising. What exactly is 28+? If he was getting 24-28, and is now getting 28.X from limited data, this doesn't mean much. For example, after investing time, energy and belief in this system, it wouldn;t be unusual for someone to also alter their driving habits, either consciously or not, which could have a significant effect on the results.
I

If anyone has any independent testing by any credible authority that shows this works, I'd love to see it. As I understand it, what we're talking about here is doing this to a standard engine as a simple bolt on widget without modifying anything else, like the engine computer, which governs much of how it operates, including the fuel/air mixture. The above wikepedia article doesn't sound too promising, as after it talks about the technology, it says possible to reduce fuel consumption by 4% and that was apparently through engines designed to make use of it, not via a simple add on.
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wrote:

There is a recent article that covers this concept as well as the "water powered car" claims in Popular Mechanics: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4271579.html .
Tiger, no question that electrolysis produces hydrogen and oxygen. What's questionable is whether there is any net energy returned in the process which requires energy itself. Judging by the article above and some other sources the best answer from actual testing seems to be possibly a very modest improvement . . . in a specially tuned engine.
Interesting discussion though. Always good to learn about new things.
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If you can't burn that HHO gas outside the engine, it won't burn inside the engine neither. Simple law. Don't believe in a scam, Don't be cheap.... and Don't look for trouble.
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I take it that this is not the same coast-to-coast run that CNN is following, or is it?
I believe that the CNN run involved running an older car on either reclamed vegetable oil mixed with biodiesel (or something similiar). That run, at least as reported on the CNN website is turning into a disaster, with a humerous side to it. Last time I saw a report, that car was stranded somewhere in the soutwest after man breakdowns, and had to be towed at a cost of $600 to the closest town with a repair shop, the crew having given up on repairing it themselves which got them slowly through the first 900-miles or so.
What to me makes the story funny, is that the 'experts' directly in this demo expected fuel filter problems, and had cautiously packed 4 spare fuel filters. Part of the problem that they encountered on the road was that they had packed the wrong fuel filters, which didn't fit the car. (Heck, doesn't everyone drive carrying 4 spare fuel filters? L0L). At last reading, and addition problem was that the fuel they were using had degraded the fuel lines themselves to the point of serious leakage. (I suspect that they meant the short neoprene flex links that connect the fuel lines, but the report was not that specific.)
They should maybe have packed more duct tape! :-)
I'm going to check on the CNN website later today, to see if there are any new reports. At last report, they were stranded somewhere outside of Phoenix (?).
Harry C.
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On Aug 5, 1:38 pm, "Kadaitcha Man"

Here is the latest from the CNN website today at 4:15 pm. Just click on "Cody's Road Trip" and here is what you today get:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2008/american.road.trips /
It's sad, and like I posted before, funny at the same time. For what it's worth, here is a link to the site where you can follow "Cody's Road Biofuel Avemture" that appears in the 'Special Coverage' section (scroll down) on the CNN website.
http://www.cnn.com /
CNN today has no details of the "road trip", and has decided to replace it with filler material that in no way describes this near disaster. Picture the headlines if these naive kids had become stranded out in the middle of the desert and died as a result of their stupidity. My guess is that CNN pulled the plug on this, before it became worse.
Let see. Follow cnn.com for future reports, if any.
Harry C.
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