Oh dear.
Did I post something you didn't want to hear?
Sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't change the fact that someone from a country with f*ck all manufacturing heritage is not in a position to talk about the emotional side of car design. If you're happy for everyone to drive identikit, badge-engineered VAG / BMW / Ford / GM cars that's fine, but don't force it on everyone else.
There is no emotional side to car design. You design a car to do a job. That job may include being nice to look at and having entertaining handling. Emotion is & character are things used to excuse shit design on the reliability front...
Not here they aren't. An XJ is much cheaper than an equivalently specced S class or 7 series.
Is that an XJ40 or an X300? X300 prices are pretty solid here, around £6 grand for a 4 litre car that's 6 years old trade. BTW, my Dad's run several old XJ40s at the more s**te end of the market (last car got up to about 160 thousand IIRC), and had very little trouble from them.
They do compare with BMW and Merc, but they're considerably cheaper. For 99% of car buyers, price is a consideration. It's not a like for like comparison.
When someone buy's a TVR or a Marcos he's not using his head. I'd not have one unless I was wealthy enough to not give a f*ck about it breaking down. In other words, I'd be wealthy enough to buy something decent instead. If I could just afford one, I'd go for an Ultima, or a Noble. Everyone I've heard of who's bought a TVR has got rid of it because of s**te reliability and terrifying handling.
So what's your point? They were as well made as their competitors?
Aye. That's why they need a V8 and a decent gearbox (Porsche or Hewland?).
You wouldn't want to drive a 7 or a Radical to work everyday. A Noble, I reckon I could bear. It's got a roof and carpets!
There are genuine reasons why the cars are cheap - because of the ingenuity of the blokes who make and design them. There's no other country that can put together a car from relatively cheap stock parts and and produce something world beating.
Um. Prodrive Imprezas are driven as roadcars fairly often round here...
Yes, but a) the car's out of warranty, and b) they get their transmissions from the same places as everyone else. So it's a manufacturing fault by the gearbox maker, not jag. Do you see?
I used to see loads in the early 90s when they were still relatively common dead at the side of the road in rain.
And Lamborghini.
It was the last Jaquar before the actual aluminium ones.
In Belgium cars with big engines (>3 liter) depreciate enormously because of hefty annual road taxes.
Just to give a figure: due the 5.4 V8 engine in my car I pay per year a road tax of 1500 UKP. If a new car or a car less than 10 years old it bought/sold, the buyer has to pay an extra tax BIV (a kind of registration tax) and for a new car with engine bigger than 3 liter and some power that is around 3.500 UKP.
The above taxes have nothing to do with insurance which come seperately.
Acknowledged but ask your dad: did he bother with the electrical moving steering colom not working? With some electrical gremlins in the dash? Did ae Jaguar dealership do the maintenance?
Your dad bought -I suppose- his Jags second hand, maintained them himself or through an independant and drove them till there was that mayor bill.
For 99.999% of buyers of a *new* car costing less than 50 kUKP, price is a mayor consideration. Once above that limit cars are bought because the buyer wants that car.
The buy becomes emotionnal, they want the car now. Quite often an substancial extra is paid in order to have the car quickly. You want a brand new Aston Martin DB9? You're gonna wait for minimum a year to get it... unless you pay a premium of around 20% of its worth and it will be in your driveway within a forthnight.
All that has its truth but it vanishes when a TVR does that immature red light race with a Porsche and leaves the Porsche for dead...
I have a car on which I am rather used to do a major engine overhaul every
10000km. Every time it think: why bother, toss it away, it has been nice, there are better cars now. But every time that cars drives and the turbo kicks in lauching it into warp 7, leaving "the better cars" in the Middle Ages , the stupid grin is on my face for the rest of the day. Mind you: actual driven mileage per year is now below 3000 km...TVR's have good handling but it is a rather unforgiving car if the driver screws up. No electronic aids, very limited impact protection: you screw up - which on most TVR's will happen at rather high speed- you die.
The danger factor has its appeal, in fact the danger factor is the reason for a significant part of its performance.
Noble and Ultima are similar and due to ground clearance impossible to drive.
Nowerdays they are well made as are Lamborghini and Ferrari: the times when a company producing unsafe and/or unreliable cars could survive, are gone.
Blokes called lawyers are responsible for that fact.
The Esprit has a V8 but lacks a decent gearbox. And as it is at the end of its production life it will most problably never get the decent gearbox it so blatantly needs.
I have driven 1 year a tuned-up Cosworth. That year it was in the workshop for about 6 months, still managed to put some 30000 km on it. Such a car is simply not fit nor designed for everyday use and it will break due to that fact.
Lotus 7 clone and Radicals are simply a joke if you would even try to use them as everyday cars. With the Noble -even with roof and carpets- you will not survive a month: those cars have the tendency to eat mechanicals parts, underside, fuel, gearboxes, drivers licences etc not mentioning having a strange habit to catch fire.
Sorry : that is again where the national honour becomes involved and it is simply not correct.
There is the mere fact that the UK legislation allows those cars to be driven on public roads whereas in the rest of Europe that is far harder, bordering to impossible.
Cars like the Lotus 7-clones are cheap simply because there is nothing in it. It's a toy, not a car. Once a real car -tried and tested, certified and stuff- is build in the UK or elsewhere, there is a corresponding pricetag and that price is not that much different from country to country.
If the car is "cheap" than most of the time it is an excuse for not being tested or simply being not comparable.
That is because the road and distances travelled are suited to the Impreza Prodrive. In Germany where cars are driven fast over long distances they are close to non-existant.
Check the mileage on those Prodrives and other EVO's.
No. Warranty doesn't even enter the equation. 55.000 km for a autobox to die is simply not acceptable.
As to the responsibility of it all: my friend bought a Jaguar, he didn't buy a gearbox. If your frige dies 3 years after purchase, you complain to the company who build the fridge, you don't complain to Philips because the condensor of the motor shortcircuited.
Tom De Moor
No, you're posting a whole load of total s**te. I've been reading this thread with interest this morning.
How does country-of-origin affect someone's position to talk about cars ? You must have missed most of Tom's previous posts - he's owned and driven a VAST amount of desirable machinery. I'd hazzard a guess that he knows what he's talking about - certainly a damnsight more than you.
What's this bizarre fascination with "manufacturing heritage" ?
What is that ? There's no such thing.
Cars do a job, for a price. It's that simple. Nobody cares about "emotion", otherwise they wouldn't drive Fiat Mareas and Diesel Passats ... oh, hang on ...
What does this have to do with anything ? Are you somehow suggesting s**te unreliable cars are a better option !?!?
Says who ? Are you trying to be representative of an Aston customer, even though your new car budget is about 1/140 of theirs ?
If they moved to Beemer underpinnings, and continued to sell enough cars to be profitable, then clearly it's *exactly* what Astons should be like. As Tom said, they need to make money and survive - if this means them turning into parts-bin-specials, then that's just fine. They certainly aren't gonna give a shit about their lost sales to ghetto-spec company car drivers !! The point here, is that you are the LAST person they are trying to please :)
Again, the fact that Bentley are slowly transforming into VAGs is a *good* thing for them ! They're selling more and better cars than they ever have before. If you put "heritage" in front of success, then you're faulty. Nobody cares that you dislike Bangle designs, least of all BMW. You're never gonna change your free company vehicle for a cost-option BMW, cos you refuse to pay the excess - BMW aren't trying to please you ! Their design strategy is working very well for them right now - they're selling lots of cars and making pots of cash.
Bingo. If Aston can make a viable Diesel, and make money from it, then good for them. Increased practicality can only be a good thing.
come from a place with little or no automotive history.
I come from England, and I don't understand the concept either. It's not even remotely important ! I didn't choose my Rover because of their "history", and neither did you when you bought your Japanese Primera.
You'll notice that companies that cling to their "history" and "DNA", die (or get bought out). It happened to Rover, Bugatti, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Jaguar, and all the rest. Tom's right - innovate, or die.
Nex time you start attatching unwarranted importance to "history" and "DNA", take a look at Fiat Group. Their history is nice looking, s**te cars, and by sticking to their guns, they were dying. Every time they come up with a new model, they talk about how it's built to compete with the Prestige brands - and every time, it falls woefully short. Now that they've finally realised this, and started delving into the GM parts bin (and contributing to it), you can expect their cars to *slowly* improve. BMW is where the money is - if you can't compete with them, you're screwed. Weird luddites like you, don't help things - once they've GM-ised their cars enough to make money, you'll stop liking them !
Arse. The old mini was *easily* the most fun to hoon around in of any car I've ever driven. It was unreliable and rusty and noisy and crumpled like a beer can when I eventually stuffed it, but up to that point I went everywhere with the biggest possible grin on my mug.
The new one is quicker and arguably handles better, whatever the hell that means, but it *isn't* as much fun as the old.
Except for bhp and torque where you only get 75% of an M5.
And it's less than £4k more.
I'd rather have the Jag though.
Given they'd solved the problem in the early '60s I'm not sure what to say. ;-)
We're obviously a bit slower up here.
Hmm.. That's a pre-'03 model then, so it's a ZF 5HP24 5-speeder.
It's a pity about the weak German gearboxes, because it spoils what is otherwise a decent powertrain. The replacement ZF 6HP26 box is much better though.
Yes, that is often the story. Dealers will -hand on their chest- proclame: "Sir, that's the first time we encounter such a problem." or "Yes, that was the weakness but it is solved now, never to reappear. Sorry : no warranty."
I know also of a design error in a gearbox of another sportscar, appearing 5 -
10 year after purchase, where the dealer repared without discussion, without any cost and with 1000 excuses for the inconveniance caused.Tom De Moor
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