Huh? What are we all doing here then?
On another note: The data collection mechanism may be solid but then again, no one seems to ask what the actual or perceived problem is.
Could it be that the engine (produced since 2000, IIRC) has become problematic over the last 2 years or are perhaps all the gadgets that come with the H6 ( onstar, electric seats etc.) that constitute additional points of failure?
Florian
Steve, I miss your point. Why do you say this? I do agree that I would rather not be in law enforcement, at least in a direct way, as I'd just as soon shoot everyone that can't 'behave'. In any case, I'm interested in your thoughts. John
Todd, I have no source in the sense you are looking for. I do have my common sense, intuition, and knowledge of human nature and business environments. I am also very controversial and not afraid to challenge the status quo. I believe it is naive to think that CU/CR is not influenced in some way, shape or form. Every example that you cite as to their 'reliability' are easily accountable as a 'front'. There are hundreds of holes you can poke in each argument. Again, I rely upon my own informed opinions, knowledge, and judgement. Anyone that does not speak from the same aspect (i.e. relies upon someone else) is working from second hand information.... something that is always inherently suspect, at least in my opinion. Regards, John
Greg, Actually, your followup works for me. Regardless of their sample size, I would not trust their reports, nor anyone elses. It's anathema in a capitalistic society. Regards, John
Given that the car is new, you would expect no 'wear' or age type issues. Grave engineering or manufacturing errors could indeed possibly show up in this stage... and in my assessment, generally across most of the user spectrum. A small sample group is still that... small. The smaller it is in relation to the total user population, the less significant a single instance or problem would be. It's true that people tend to 'bitch' about the negatives (I tend in that direction, like most) and remain 'quiet' about
*not* having any problems. This tendency certainly does bias any sample group in the negative direction.In my mind, this makes me wonder where/how they determined their sample group. Certainly no one asked me. Again, from my experience, others experience here, and many many sites on the web, there is an overwhelming evidence to the contrary that Subarus are problematic. Again, I have many sites and links available from my research. I would be happy to provide upon request.
You are probably correct here. In fact Subaru knows their customer base very well. If it was true that Subaru readers read CU (I personally don't think it jives with what a 'typical' Subaru owner is), then Subaru should/would be concerned about negative press. But maybe they are really smart enough to know how to do business, and are doing just that.
So you're from Bouwston, eh? *-) John
How do you know this? My objective sample is a single experience, however, I have 3 Subarus, know much about the engineering and technology about the make. I also am not alone in my assertion that these are reliable, well engineered cars. There are many, many instances that report just that on the Internet.
I would like to poll this group: How many H6 owners have had any problems with their vehicles? I'll start:
2002 H6 VDC Sedan with 37,500 miles and 27 months old. Problems: 1 - Parking rod mechanism; fixed under recall 2 - Cruise control cable; fixed under recent recall 3 - I'm thinking.... 4 - I'm still thinking.... 5 - oh yeah, the automatic climate control drives me crazy; does that count? 6 - nothing else to report.
On your tangent, that somewhat supports my thoughts. Make up your own mind. Use your own judgement. Check things out for yourself. We are all capable of doing so.
It is a well known fact that people are much more likely to complain than to praise. It's very much human nature. While I would agree with you that most car owners don't discuss their vehicles on the internet (nor do they most folks use the internet/newsgroups period), you can generally find pros and cons of just about anything. Again, you must filter the information you come across. Many of the websites I cite are not just individual owners, but other review sites, businesses, and other parties involved in the automobile industry. And to nit pick, I do not just Google. I have a comprehensive search engine (Copernic Plus) that queries many, many sites. John
IME, that's code for "an unreasonable PITA that's immune to logic and probably wraps themselves up in a quote from Einstein about 'violent opposition from mediocre minds.'" But whatever floats yer boat.
Oh, I see. For me to continue to converse with you, i'll have to ask you to remove the foil hat you're wearing to keep "them" from stealing your thoughts.
Consumers Union exists as it does to be free from this sort of bias. If you can't trust their being relatively free from bias, you really can't trust any review or rating.
You can poke holes in their testing methodology if ya like, or the criteria on which they issue their recommendations, but the integrity of the institution is probably not something that's terribly vulnerable for the reason that they're set up with a lot of care to be free from the sort of bias you allege (completely unsubstantiated).
Best Regards,
-- Todd H.
2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4 Chicago, Illinois USA
We're kinda getting OT here, but your viewpoint strikes me as "There's some scumbags out there, so everyone sucks!"....the "cogito, ergo scum" concept...ultimate surrender.
No one here is suggesting that anybody go out and buy a vehicle based solely upon a CR appraisal. CR shouldn't and doesn't exist in a complete vacuum. The CR appraisal should be used as *one* source of input in one's buying decision. And while firsthand accounts may be more accurate than CR's appraisals (and I said "may" be more accurate -- they may also be *less* accurate) you're *never* going to be able to communicate firsthand with current and former Subaru Legacy H6 owners (for example) in anywhere near the numbers that CR uses in forming its appraisals.
- Greg Reed
Well, I must admit that I am very much a cynic. I do realize I come across as you've described... I have met some wonderful people... and I believe most people are good, and want to do good. But I am very perceptive, and sensitive, to some of our human frailties (including my own). Perhaps I just let the few (?) scum bags get to me too much. John
Todd, I must admit that most of your reply does not make sense to me (fault on my part I suppose). Perhaps we really are two very different individuals. I simply do not understand where you are coming from, but I do respect your position. I will be honest and say this: please don't read anything into what I've written (i.e. code)... it's not code... it's the exact words I can best use to describe my thoughts, 2) I don't know what PITA is, 3) I am a very logical person, but admittedly cynical and stubborn, 4) I'm not worried about anyone either stealing my thoughts nor replacing them (foil hat?), 5) There is quite a bitof accuracy in your statement that I don't (inherently) trust any review or rating, 6) As far as immunity/vulnerability to 'bias', all I need do is point out the US government that is supposedly 'bias' free... and is sorely, and embarrassingly anything but. John
Greg, I pretty much agree with your viewpoint. My irritation stems from those that seem to hold up their 'one' source and degradate a whole brand of vehicle, amoung other things. Everyone should collect whatever information they can, make their own informed decisions, and then make their decision. To hold up any one source as involitle is naive. I would push back in one area: I think it is very much possible to touch base with other H6 owners. We are doing that very thing in this newsgroup. How many data points does one need? The odds are very very high that if I formed a relationship with one or two trusted folks in this newsgroup, that I would value their thoughts and inputs much more highly than any supposedly-non-biased entity. John
Everyone should collect whatever information they can,
So we're not allowed to enter data, only collect it? Where does the data come from then?
Several years ago they printed their methods in the auto issue, or the survey sent to members, or somewhere. Been too long to remember, but I saw the minimum number once. It's possible that number is real low, but the bottom line is that the surveys detected a pattern.
If you know that whole corporate thing, then you know that potential legal problems often rule management decisions. It's easy to say all cars are great, and everybody will love you. I suppose JD Powers fits that model somewhat. But listing a car on the 'Avoid' list is just asking for trouble, and I bet that decision isn't made by the schlub they just hired to scan the surveys. There are probably people at SoA just like you who saw CU call their baby ugly, probably lawyers too, and no doubt they have contacted CU to see the data with their own eyes, or whatever a company does when CU says their baby is ugly.
What I like about CU is that they have the cojones to call it like they see it.
-John O
There might be what, a thousand people reading this NG? Two thousand? No way to know, really, but how many Subaru owners are there?
-John O
Well put.
-- Todd H.
2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4 Chicago, Illinois USA
The data comes from many places. In general, I do not trust 'organized' sources. They are inherently suspect. There are many places to get data and information that do not involve organizations that possibly have agendas. John
But you don't respect an individual that does likewise? It seems as if I have bothered quite a few folks here by questioning their 'trusted' institutions. I absolutely respect anyone who 'calls it like they see it' provided the 'call' is objective. Hmm.... John
I have a 2003 H6 OBW that I bought new last June. I received a JD Powers survey form a few months after I bought the car, and I did register a few gripes but they were all minor. These were/are the things that annoy me about this car, which now has about 11,000 miles on the odometer:
Those are very minor problems. This is my fourth new car in 30 years, and my second new Suby. I really like this car. At this point, I see no reason why I shouldn't buy another Subaru next time.
C. Brunner
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