Black Transmission Fluid - - Any Hope???

"Black" tranny fluid is not a good sign. Lots of people, however, don't give transmission service a second thought until it is late in the game.

We've heard the story that, in transmission like this, it may be inadvisable to service the tranny at this stage. The claim is that sludge and varnish are the only reasons your tranny continues to work and if you clean it up, it may fail. (Whether true or not....)

The previous mechanic's story is, however, a little lacking in credibility: If the fluid is black, you are already circulating crap through the innards. If you drop the pan and clean it out, you will not stir up any new 'sludge'.

In my estimation, you are already driving with a ticking time bomb. It WILL fail, sooner or later. I would prefer that my car fail at home than on the road, but I never let my cars go so long without service.

If it were mine, I would be sure I had money reserved for a rebuild, and would change the fluid. It is your choice, and your gamble.

Nobody can tell you, for sure, what is going to happen.

I usually tell more by doing a 'sniff' test. If it smells burnt or like burnt toast, it is likely in trouble.

Otherwise I have seen a bunch of really black fluid come out of a lot of old vehicles without them failing soon after. Lots actually.... I have even seen what looked like diarrhea come out of a couple Jeep CJ ones that got filled with muddy water and they still ran after too.

However, I also hear of a lot that go to quick lubs and get told what you are told and do it with 'them' anyway. Those ones for some strange reason all seem 'to' fail....

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

I have been to one of those quick lube places before.I will never go to one of them ever again.One hot afternoon,I didn't feel like changing the oil and oil filter and lubebing all of the alemites,(1978 Dodge van) so I drove my old van to a quick lube place.I told them all I want for my old van is an oil and oil filter change and a lube job.I was standing there at the front of the lube pit and watching as best as I could.I don't think the guy lubed all of the alemites.When I got back home and I looked under my van,I could see most of the alemites haden't even been touched,so I got out my grease gun and I lubed them all myself. cuhulin

If changing the fluid causes the transmission to fail, it was bound to leave you stranded sometime soon anyhow.

I would have the pan dropped and cleaned out, filter changed, and transmission fluid flushed.

A transmission shop would be better than a lube place to take care of this, but I'd call both and compare pricing. I'd let a lube shop do a transmission flush as long as I could watch the whole proceedure... It's actually pretty simple to do.

Before doing anything, I'd check the owners manual to see if your vehicle needs any special type of ATF fluid.

snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote in news:21128-462FAB4E-134@storefull-

3253.bay.webtv.net:

Nobody has had Alemite fittings since about 1930. You had Zerk fittings, or blank plugs in place of them.

I never have called them Zerk fittings before.To me,they are Alemite fittings.

cuhulin

Thank you all for your replies.

Anyone have any particular transmission shop in South Fla. they'd recommend?

I think there's probably no sense in perpetuating the neglect. A good transmission shop might have that magic touch our little car needs.

Thanks once more!

Alemite appears to be the name of the company that invented zerk fittings

snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote in news:5738-46300771-99@storefull-

3257.bay.webtv.net:

A Zerk fitting is not the same as an Alemite fitting.

I can't find my October/03 issue of "Skinned Knuckles" magazine. This issue had an article on the three common sorts of grease fittings used on cars through the ages. And that's the ONLY issue I can't find!

The magazine article had sketches of the three types of fittings side by side.

As I remember, an Alemite fitting was straight, not "belled" the way a Zerk is, and it had two pins extending radially from its diameter. These pins engaged the grease gun, much as the pins on an 1157 light bulb engage its socket.

Zerk and Alemite may be the same company now, but the fittings known by those names are not the same.

120k miles shouldn't cause auto transmission fluid to be "black" in ANY vehicle. Back in the days of American 3-speed automatics, you could run them over 200k on the factory fluid with no damage. Its true that modern 4- 5- and 6-speed transmissions are far more fragile and should have more frequent fluid changes, but 120k really isn't excessive since most manufacturers still only recommend 60k intervals even for severe usage. My guess is that the transmission has been slipping and has burned the fluid due to a mechanical problem. When you say "no super-major transmission concerns" it leads me to think there is SOME transmission behavior that you're noticing is "not right." Sorry to say, its PROBABLY dead. But not necessarily...

I was about to have the fluid and filter changed out but the

I do NOT agree with that philosophy at all. Yes, there are conditions where doing a fluid change will cause a transmission that is marginal to start slipping- but IF a fluid change does that, the transmission was NOT SAFE to continue driving anyhow. Change the fluid and filter- if the transmission works it will work a lot longer than it would have with burned up fluid. If it quits, then it was about to strand you somewhere anyhow.

Oh, and BE SURE to use only the factory recommended fluid type.

Yeah, Mike, but you're talking about Chrysler Torqueflights or GM Hydramatics in old Jeep CJs. They'll run on horse pee for fluid! A fragile, lightweight Toyota automatic in a small car like a Rav4 isn't going to take much abuse.

I still agree 100% that the OP should change the fluid, though. Crossing your fingers and hoping the sludge keeps the clutches working is a good way to get stranded in a bad part of town.

Isn't it funny how tough all the old stuff is. The CJ trannys have to be more than 20 years old and they still work after that kind of abuse.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

It's because it was all overbuilt because they didn't know where they could cut the weight, so they cut none of it.

Then in the 80's they cut the weight, but didn't always cut it in the right spots, so you ended up with stuff like the first gen of 700R4s, the Pontiac 301, 5L Mustangs with 4 bolt wheels and such.

Somewhere in the 90's they started to get better at building stuff that doesn't weigh a ton but isn't fragile either.

The LS1 and T56 in my Trans Am are still holding up after the abuse I put it through... the stock clutch on the other hand... isn't doing so good.

But, I'm sure you knew all that. :)

Ray

Actually if you take a 727 or a TH400 apart, there's not a lot of excess material in there, and they're not all that heavy so I don't think its a question of "not knowing where to cut weight" at all. They KNEW- engineers with slide-rules were often better than their CAD/CAM dependent successors (and I say that as an engineer who never used a slide rule...). I can roll under a car with an A-727 on a jack, then transfer 2/3 of its weight to my chest and then bench-press the bellhousing end of it up into position, and I'm a little guy who loathes gyms. They just used to build them to last the life of the car, because its easy to do that with a simple non-lockup convertor 3-speed. The price is really that with all that extra clutch material in there, they have more drag in 1st and 2nd gear when the clutches are disengaged (3rd gear everything's locked solid). When they started reducing the number of clutch plates and reducing clutch pack diameter to reduce the disengaged drag from shearing the fluid is when reliability started tanking. Somebody, right or wrong, decided that having a certain percentage of transmissions fail before the rest of the car was "used up" was an acceptable trade for higher fuel economy.

I think they've finally figured out how to make ultralight automatics last by using the engine management system to throttle back the engine during shifts. A 727 or TH400 was built to bring a 440 CID Mopar V8 or a Buick 455 V8 from redline down to 3000 RPM when it shifted gears, WITHOUT closing the throttle. That's a lot of energy dumped into the clutches during each shift. Avoid that requirement by only shifting when the computer throttles back the engine, and you can drastically reduce the size of the clutches without reducing the life of the transmission. But automakers only really started doing that within the last 4-5 years. In the 90s, they would sometimes cut out alternate cylinders during wide-open throttle upshifts, but now that most cars have servomotor controlled throttle plates, they can throttle back on EVERY shift.

Back in the slide rule days, there were drafting departments to do the mundane stuff. I get the feeling that engineers didn't do half the stuff we do today in the terms of mundane overhead type things. Then throw on all the BS that has been added since then.

Considering the penalties of CAFE, that's probably why it was an acceptable trade.

I agree with your last comment. I dont drive sludge buckets.

Not all the older trannies were good. I refer in particular to the 440T4 Metric GM which was doing good to make 100,000 miles in some of its applications.

Pictures of the pin type fittings about halfway down.

Yeah, but it isn't "old," is it? If its made after 1975, its "new." To me anyway... :-)

Actually, I agree. "Back in the day" I thought that, compared to a Chrysler 904 and 727 or the Ford C4 and C6, the GM TH350 and TH400 were marginal at best (3 bolts holding the convertor to the flex plate? GIMME A BREAK!) But by today's standards, they're paragons of reliability :-(

and change the fluid. if the trannys working o.k. its probably just changed colour because its old. we all go grey eventually!!!!