A 2002 MKIV 1.8T with 5 speed. Here's a quote from C&D's test: "At 6.5 seconds,
the 1.8-liter turbo powers the GTI to 60 mph more than a second quicker than
the SVT Focus and a second and a half quicker than the Civic Si."
Here's the link:
Then that would make it 0.2 seconds slower than the RSX, not 0.02! He has
trouble with his data....
And if all this is the case, why would you even think that a 7.7 second 0-60
figure for the prelude SH (your original claim) was anywhere near correct
when we've established that it's almost the same (aside from a lack of 5 hp)
from the RSX? Sounds like you need to use some common sense and question
some other figures before you use them...
Curb weight, power delivery, gearing, drag co., grip and other factors all
contribute to what makes a car perform the way it does. This is why an RX8 with
considerablly less torque from a much smaller engine can keep up with a G35
coupe'. The RSX has 20 more horsepower then my car, with a higher redline, a
lower curb weight, and can get away with shorter gearing in 1st-5th than my car
because of it's 6 speed gearbox. All of this stuff needs to be taken into
account. Even if I accept your number of 6.7 for the Prelude, this would place
it .2 slower to 60 than my car, despite a displacement advantage of nearly half
a liter, 15 more horsepower, and a lighter curb weight. Other things are at
play. I've never seen a Prelude tick off 0-60 that quickly, and you have yet to
provide a valid source which backs you up. I'm skeptical of the number, that's
all. Regardless, we do seem to agree on our thinking about FWD Vs. RWD.
Sadly, I lack the ability to borrow cars from major manufacturers and subject
them to performance tests. This is beside the fact that I neither have the
neccesary testing equipment nor am I an "expert" driver capable of performing
tests in a manner that most people would accept. With that taken into
consideration, how do you propose I go about finding performance numbers? The
only source I have right now are automotive journals (both in print and on the
net) and I get the feeling that no matter which of those journals I cite in my
posts, you'll find a problem with it.
Understeering doesn't have so much to do with AWD as with weight. The main
culprit for that, apart from suspension, is weight distribution. What
really happens is that most AWD vehicles predominantly lean on their noses,
as a result of AWD's weight burden predominantly leaning on the front axle.
If you don't want to take my word for that, just check a Mitsubishi EVO and
you'll see that because that is one of the best balanced cars in terms of
weight understeering is much less present and oversteer is thus made
possible on many occasions.
This is why I'm waiting to see if BMW are capable of manufacturing a new 3
series with their great 3l diesel engine, their new X-drive system -
apparently just as good as Quattro, though its reliability remains to be
seen, and their famous neutral distribution of weight. The present 330xi and
xd models still also suffer from excessively heavy noses, not to mention
Audis which are notoriuous for that. Of course while the new S4 is an
otherwise great car, it would be so very much better if it could see some of
its weight transferred to its back, or better still, see it vanish.
firstname.lastname@example.org (Steve Grauman) wrote in message
No, not true. I know for a fact that FWD cars can be tuned for
oversteer. Raise the pressure in the rear tires, or reduce their
section width. Put a very large anti-roll bar in the rear, and a
smaller one up front. Use a harder rubber compound on the rear tires
than on the front.
It can be done, because I've seen it. On my '83 GTI, I was able to
make it neutral at the limit through tire pressure and a large rear
While that has something to do with drivetrain layout, it's also
designed that way from the factory. MBs and BMWs also understeer
directly from the factory, because ham-fisted drivers do the right
thing for understeer when they overcook it - they lift.
My quattro oversteers at the limit because that's the way I've set it
up. I used tire pressure alone to get it to do this.
I sympathise with what you said about tyre pressure. Another good thing to
do if you want oversteer is - because front tyres get the brunt of wear - to
move them to the back, while keeping those in the front pretty new.
However, I have to say in the case of my Quattro it is still mostly
understeer that I get on sharp bends, unless braking heavily or lifting the
gas pedal abruptly half way. I've found the best way to tackle sharp
cornering is by lifting off the accelerator just before the sharpest point
and then flooring the pedal there or a tiny wee little before that to allow
for turbo lag. If on the other hand, I try to kick on the gas too early it
is mostly understeer I get for the beginning of the corner, then if a bit
lucky and depending a lot on the quality of tarmac, some oversteer. Now, I'd
like to hear how you tackle your corners.
It must also be said that if you set your car up for blunt oversteer - which
will usually happen mostly when braking, then you might be interfering with
the stock design of your EBD brake system - my car does not have ESP, and in
the event of an emergency stop half way through a sharp bend that might be
very dangerous because there wouldn't be a way to prevent your car from
Uhh, no. As the tread gets worn, the tires PICK UP grip in dry
conditions. That's why folks "shave" tires for racing.
Try a bigger rear anti-roll bar, or lower tire pressure in the rear.
Works great. With the combo, you can tune it such that the car is
neutral at the limit.
Goodness - sounds like you're going to have an accident some day. If
you're still on the gas from turn-in to apex, then you weren't going
fast enough BEFORE turn-in. Lifting at the apex and then grabbing
loads of torque after that sounds like a good way to exit the roadway
ass-first. Well, if the car is understeering at the limit, lifting is
the only way to get the damn nose around...
I am on the gas until some distance before the turn-in (differs with
turn and road conditions), turn in and trail-brake (sometimes, if I am
VERY familiar with the corner,) keep the throttle up over 3k rpm to
keep the turbo spinning, select down to whatever gear is called for
(depends on corner), off the brakes, late apex and full on the
throttle. Trail-braking is tough, so I don't do it much unless there
is good run-out from the corner in case I over-cook it. Otherwise, I
have all my braking done before turn-in. Keeping the turbo up keeps
me from getting a surprise on turn exit.
No, I have it set for slight oversteer, and I do not put myself in a
position to have to emergency-brake in any corner.
I'm not exactly sure that you should be instructing others on
cornering technique. Following your method might lead to a hell of a
lot of surprises where none need to be, and on the track, it would be
damn slow. But hey, what do I know? I've only had a few days of Skip
Barber, so I'm no expert. Ask Krieger - he's a real instructor.
As the tread gets worn, the tires PICK UP grip in dry
Totally wrong! The surface in direct contact with the road might be slightly
bigger for a worn tyre, but the quality of rubber has so badly deteriorated
that grip is MUCH LESS, even in the dry. Otherwise, nobody would be
replacing their tyres and Michelin would be selling peanuts. Those who shave
tires for racing do it because they know or should know that in so doing
they are getting rid of that layer of rubber that has so badly deteriorated
("singed" as it were).
No. If you don't want to deviate too much from specs, I find that it is
precisely the opposite, i.e., rising pressure at the rear, that will help
the car oversteer - now, I have never tried anything drastic, so you might
be right, assuming it is by a considerable margin that you lower that
pressure, in which case, the car will be a real danger on the motorway as
the rubber will heat too much to be safely driven at high speeds.
The point in lifting and applying torque is precisely to get the back
started so that you can then modulate the amount of oversteer with your
This techique is OK for a light FWD (anything like a Civic, Focus or 206
GTI, for example) but not for an Audi quattro for a very simple reason: If
you're totally off the gas until apex, you're too late on the pedal because
quattro will not have those necessary splits of a second to send torque to
the back, which is where you mostly want it at apex to induce oversteer.
Also, by using your hand-brake you're the one who is really risking having
an accident unless on a circuit, where speed-induced momentum is too high
for that sort of malabarism anyway.
Right, so you're a supernatural being because you never have to
emergency-brake. If you really know what "emergency" means, you'll know it
means everything but "predictable", so by no means can you foresee what your
"position" will be. Just think of an unexpected obstacle half-way through a
Did I ever intend to be instructing others? Not even close. I'm just only
talking about my experiences with my own quattro and trying to learn from
those with more experience than me, but then again, it's only a pitty we
cannot meet to see who is faster on the track, and learn from them, assuming
safety to be first and foremost.
Here's a good read for those confused by treadwear issues:
This article does say that as tread gets old, it loses "stickiness."
But in auotcross circles, worn tires are used in place of racing tires
on the cars of the budget-minded.
In any case, car tires that have been *equally* heat cycled (which is
what we are talking about here), moving the less-treaded tires to the
end of the car that you desire to have *more grip* is the proper way.
I've done it, and it works.
Oh, dear - you are terrribly confused. Here is a URL to help ease
your lack of knowledge:
Go to the chart at the bottom.
Not the way you describe it. Maybe you've left something out?
I can see you have no experience on the track, or that your experience
is quite small or elementary. That's OK, we all started there. I
don't want oversteer at the apex - I want straight-on power. I want
to steer as little as possible - I'm trying to extend the straight. I
want the car to be neutral to the turn exit. You want to steer A LOT
before the apex, then steer less after. And you do not want to slide
any of the tires in any way. Really - don't take my word for it.
Look up "trail braking" and "late apex" in Google - that will explain
it better than I can.
I'm not sure where you got the idea I used my handbrake at all. Maybe
you should read what I wrote more carefully.
I have not had to emergency brake in quite some time. In fact, I
cannot actually remember the last time. That is because, on the
public roads at least, I never, *ever* outdrive my sightlines. This
is a basic defensive driving technique, taught to me when I first got
behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. Nothing supernatural about it.
Common sense, that's all.
If it's blind, then I go only as fast as I am able to see. If that
means 20mph around a corner, then that's what I drive. I don't
overdrive my sightlines.
That is wise. I'm not sure where you got your instruction, but that
instructor is not fit to teach even basic elementary vehicle driving.
If you drive as you say, then I would be able to take any old A1 VW
GTI in decent tune and do a decent job of making your day a poor one.
When I went to a club event some years ago, one of the fellows who had
a 308 Ferarri decided to run his everyday work car. A 1983 VW GTI.
He said it had not been modified in any way, other than uprated
dampers and strut tower braces. His times on the track (Portland
International Raceway) were better than almost all of the fine iron
driven by the invited club members. A lot of expensive European
machinery, some of it with TRIPLE his HP numbers, were humbled that
day. But he did have his SCCA license, and he did know how to drive
that car at 10/10ths. I had sold my GTI long before then, but he made
me wish I still had it. I had no idea it was that fast! He was so
smooth it was incredible.
My point? The machinery is important, but the technique is more
important. Maybe you have just been unclear as to your skills and
understanding of automotive dynamics. I will certainly be happy to
give you the benefit of the doubt. But please, read the references I
gave, and look up the terms I have used. It will make my point more
clear, in the case that I have written it poorly, and caused
misunderstanding. If I have written as to cause misunderstanding, I
apologize in advance.
"Shaving" is as much to tread wear and our discussion as much as oranges is
to potatoes, so if you don't believe I'm right when I say the car is faster
and more manageable with the slightly worn tyres at the rear rather than at
the front, I can't believe you can possibly be faster than me at all on the
Certainly the anti-roll bar, but just the opposite as to tyre pressure.
Optimal tyre pressure is that which gives you optimal traction. What you are
saying does not work with Audis, as it would make them unsafe at high speeds
as a result of rubber overheating.
Sorry, I must have misinterpreted your trail-brake and misread hand-brake.
Totally agree that it's a very bad idea to overdrive your sightlines, but
you're neglecting many other factors, such as any unexpected animal dashing
across the road. Don't wait for that to happen.
I'm not sure where you got your instruction, but that
My instructor happens to have been ranking among the top 5 rallye drivers
in this country for over 7 years. I took a course in a 325i on an ice track.
I can tell you you really learn where to oversteer there, which is roughly
proportionally distributed on both sides of apex, assuming a symmetrical
bend, with a bit more emphasis before apex.
I'd enjoy your challenge only if you were one of those in the "triple HP"
Most definitely agree here. Remember what Mr Bond was capable of doing in
his Two Chevaux? :)
Have a good day,
If you had bothered to read the link, then you would see the
No, I don't believe you are right, and until you provide something
other than your opinion to counter my *experience* and my outside
source, then you are just typing to see your words in USENET.
Did you read the link I provided? Did you know that there are other
references out there that state exactly the same thing?
Sorry, Mr. Roberts. Tire pressures are most often given as a range,
and having the sets of tires at two different pressures within that
range is not dangerous. At any speed, other than past the speed
rating of the tire.
We're not talking about running a 36psi tire at 20psi to get results.
I run the rears of my quattro at 3psi less than the fronts.
Actually, I'm not. I live in a rural area with livestock and wild
animals. The terrain does consist of plenty of "blind bends." I have
never been surprised, even when an animal darts out into the road on
the corner, because I do not overdrive my sightlines. The sudden
appearance of some obstacle in the middle of the roadway is not
Ralleye driving and tarmac driving are not the same. Full
throttle/left-foot braking technique works for ralleye, but would be a
disaster on tarmac.
I don't ralleye.
I have no idea what this means.
A fine Roger Moore film. IIRC, he drove an Alfa GTV6 near the end -
Octopussy, right? So many Bond films - I can't keep them all
The point remains - don't take *my* word for any of this. Ask a real
instructor, or at least read the links I provided. I am absolutely
not making any of this stuff up.
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