Prove it, I can. 7.1 is about the best time I've ever seen for an SH and that's
generous. And I'd like to see links from actual road tests, not just some guy
making claims about what his car can do.
More lies, several other cars have recorded over 1.0g including the 911 GT3 and
the new Ferrari Enzo. Here's a link to the C&D article where the GT3 pulls
1.03g, the 2nd highest ever recorded by a street car:
Post a link to it. I shouldn't have to go purchase back issues of magazines
just to see if you're lying. 0.96 Is incrediblly high for a Honda. That still
wouldn't make it faster around a track than a Porsche, but it is high. You also
claimed that the 911 GT3 couldn't break the 1.0g barrier, and I showed you
You must not be looking at the PRELUDE SH== with Honda's ATTS (active
torque-transfer system) that was revolutionary in that it transferred up to
80% of the torque to the outside front wheel in hard cornering and had no
measureable understeer when tested. Car and Driver doesn't have this
article available online-- but I'll try to scan the hard copy I'm looking
at; I would question the 1.03 figure-- but I've seen numbers close to that
by other "supercars". You yourself originally said 7.7 secs for the prelude
(probably the automatic) versus your later figure of 7.1... could it be that
you don't read as many magazines as I do?
Also, don't try to imply that Honda can't achieve such a figure... they have
next to VW/Audi probably the 2nd best FWD suspension of any car maker with
the double-wishbone front suspension... and you should recall the late 80s
model preludes with 4 wheel-steering that were either 0.93 or 0.94 on the
skidpad.... I'd suggest a little more research on your part!
So I shouldn't question the .96 for a Prelude, but you can question the numbers
I linked to for everyone to see?
I've seen road tests of the Prelude from everywhere between 7.3 to 7.7 and I'd
be willing to believe 7.1 is possible. My GTi does 0-60 in 6.5, but it has more
torque, a flatter powerband, and curb weight that I believe is lower.
I read nearly every issue every month of 5 or 6 different mags. But I looked at
the last of the Preludes very closely in 2001 while I was shopping for a car,
and I did a *lot* of research on them. I've never seen numbers that high.
Beyond that, I've never seen anyone claim that a Prelude SH would be able to
succesfuilly take on a Porsche, because it simply can't be done. I would paint
myself yellow and run through the streets naked if a 2001 Prelude SH could take
a 2001 Carrera with equally matched drivers.
Honda doesn't use the double wishbone setup anymore. They dropped it for cost
and cabin-space issues. I'll agree that Audi makes the best handling FWD cars
on the market right now, as long as we're talking about mainstream autos
avaliable in North America.
All wrong again, the best handling FWD car on the market right now is the
Peugeot 206 GTI, whether you like it or not. And then, the stock Alfa 146
GTA holds far far better than any stock VAG FWD and absorbs bumps better
too. In fact all magazines praise it for being even more supple, dynamic and
effective than a R32 on the dry, right? And we're talking about a modest
FWD. Now you tell me of any VAG FWD that can be compared to the R32 in terms
of handling! Well, remember the R32 is still inferior to the Alfa, OK? When
are you going to come to terms with the fact you've lost your argument?
VAG has NEVER held the best suspension. Indeed the best overall suspension
belongs to Mercedes, and then after that, BMW suspension is also much better
than VAG's. You should just try to drive any Porsche on a bumpy European
mountain pass, and you'd soon realise you're talking nonsense. Porsches
only excel on the Autobahn and wide open roads, drill this into your mind,
By the way, the GT3 could never cope with an M3 SMGII on a winding mountain
pass, either, I feel sorry for you, since you seem to be so fond of
Jesus Christ, did you read my post? It said: "...as long as we're talking about
mainstream autos avaliable in North America." Peugeot no longer sells cars in
North America dimwit, try a reading comprehension course. Besides, the Focus RS
would trounce the Peugeot.
I wouldn't know, I've never seen a comparison between them.
We aren't having an argument because you obviously:
1. Don't properly read my posts
2. Don't provide any evidence besides biased opinion.
That's an interesting theory, albeit completely wrong. The A4 and RS6 trounced
the C32 and E55 in a recent comparison by Car and Driver, in terms of overall
dynamics and track-ability. BMW has a great suspension, but the S4 was also
better around a track in than the M3 in the same test.
You apprently have no idea what you're talking about. Not only am I sure that
you've never driven these cars, it's apprent you don't bother to do any
research. You should try to find the recent Top Gear DVD (produced by the BBC
for UK television) where they praise the GT3 as being one of the best driver's
cars on earth.
I feel sorry for your ignorance. And I thought Europeans were soupposed to be
better educated than us Yanks...
Ever heard that there's life outside USA? And that we have lots of cars
in Europe that don't get sold there? Like if any european actually cares
if they sell a normal model of a car there?
Get real, I'm not saying Peugeot is better than Focus, but it's still a
valid car to compare to. If it's get sold in the US or not, who cares.
All the mentioned cars in this topic are European.
Have you guys ever drove any of these? Or are these just something you
look in the magazine and say "this must be the best, since my favourite
magazine says so" ?
This one is for you:
3. Get some experience with real cars, even a kid can compare cars from
magazines and say "MB is the best!"
I wouldn't put S4 before M3 in the track tests, seems odd. S4 isn't
designed for that, M3 on the other hand is. Weird driver they've had, in
this case, get a better source ;)
Top Gear is a nice show, however source source, they've also said
something you're trying to bash.
Next you're saying Porsche GT3 can beat any other cars in snow too? I'd
say my little sisters Toyota Yaris could be faster ;). You're seriously
forgetting the situation where your driving cars. A nice Ferrari Enzo
won't go anywhere in frozen snow, it gets stuck. A 40s Russian truck
will go further.
I was talking about cars sold in the U.S.A, if I was taking about cars sold
elsewhere, I would have said so. The Peugeot didn't have any place in that
Do you think I care what Europeans think? Do you think I care what *you* think?
Do you know how to read other people's posts and comment on them in a relevant
manner? Do you understand that I was not comparing Audi to Europe-only
manufacturers? Are you awake and lucid? Get real man.
It would have been a valid comparison if I was talking about cars sold only in
Europe, which I wasn't doing in the post you responded to.
Some of them are made in Europe (the Porsches) but other than the Peugeot, they
are all sold in the U.S.
I've driven 5 different Carrera, 2 944s, a 924, and a 912 (non-E). I've also
driven 2 A4s, an S4, 3 Preludes, an SVT Focus (if that matters), a 328i, a
330i, and an E36 M3. Along with several others, want me to keep going?
Are there other seriously taken car manufacturers then than Europeans in
this topic? You haven't said any, so we'll just stick to European cars
and European markets, since they know how to make cars here.
Yes, you were referring to some old Mustangs, which apparently are still
the only thing you remember. Don't you honestly think it's stupid to
compare any cars then, if we have to be picky on what they sell in the
And Peugeot (or PSA) is a huge car company anyway, so even if it's not
sold in your mighty USA, it doesn't matter. It's not some small car
company you can just set aside, because you don't have the luxury to buy
a normal car.
Naah, you should have more sources than just one. It's a bad source if
it's your only source, like in this case.
Someone commented that Audi had the best suspension. I said I'd agree *as long
as we were only talking about models sold in North America*. When you bring
cars that aren't sold here into the discussion, then it all changes. That's
I don't care if you write an add-on to justify yourself and restrict the
market to the US. You know the world is much much bigger than just the US,
you dimwit :)
If the Focus RS would trounce the Peugeot it would only be because of its
turbo and power, not for its suspension. This is backed up by fiasco after
fiasco by the hand of Ford in the Wold Rallye Car Championship, and not just
for this year.
Then you don't even read as much as I believed you did, which was the only
thing that supported you as you don't seem to have any hands-on experience
from what I've seen in your posts.
Once again you're the one who not only cannot read between the lines, but no
even the lines themselves. I wrote OVERALL best. That means dynamics and
track-ability but most importantly COMFORT. The S4 might have been faster
than the M3 but it was only thanks to Quattro, not thanks to its suspension,
which is better for BMWs as they don't get the nasty bouncing of the front
axle we normal Audi drivers get - I am now excepting the RS6, which is of
course a totally different calliber.
You should try to find the recent Top Gear DVD (produced by the BBC
"One of the best driver's cars on earth" has never been a synonym for
fastest on winding mountain passes, which was the point I made. "One of the
best driver's cars on earth" means one of those that can provide the most
SATISFACTION in the hands of EXPERIENCED drivers, which unfortunately
excludes you for obvious reasons. Then again, if I could only have one car
and had to use it also in the street I would hands-down take an RS6 over a
GT3, except for its resale value.
But once again you've proven yourself wrong as my last quotation remains
true, so I'll try to be polite and keep what I think of you to myself... :)
You can never mean to start an argument between Europeans and Americans,
because deep at heart you know you probably came from Germany yourself - as
your last name Grauman suggests. Now, can you speak German, at least?
You don't need to care, you simply need to read the posts and keep your
comments relevant. I've not even attempted to argue the Audi Vs. Peugeot case
with you. I've simply said that your comment was irrelevant.
Of course it is, and when/if we have a discussion about FWD autos offered
worldwide, than I'll be happy to hear what you have to say about the Peugeot.
Seeing as they were pulled from the American market long before I was old
enough to drive, I have no experience with them first hand - and I admit it.
The Focus has one of the best suspensions worldwide, at least in comparison to
other FWD cars. There's a reason VW looked to the Focus for clues about how to
properly setup the Golf V's suspension.
I won't argue this. But if a manufacturers performance in Rally racing was the
only indication of how well their street cars perform, the Mitsubishi Eclipse
GTS would walk all over the Peugeot.
I've driven several Porsches and Audis at the limit. I'm the first to admit I'm
not an expert driver, but I don't think it matters here. The bottom line here
is I'm really only arguing over one specific claim:
That the Peugeot and a Honda Prelude SH could match or best a Carrera on a
"winding" road if the drivers were equally matched. The only "proof" you guys
have been able to provide for those claims are antecdotes, reference to
Peugeot's rallye wins (and I pointed out that Porsche and Audi have race
records that far superceed Peugeot's), and your silly questioniong of my
Fine. I've driven a few BMWs and I can tell you that in EVERY case the
compareable Audi was more comfortable.
My father's Audi never suffered that. Nor do the A4 and S4 of some friends.
Other than reference that quote and link you to the C&D article with the 1.03g
skidpad number, I'm not sure how else I can express in factual terms (as
opposed to my personal opinion) the capabilities of the GT3. If you wish to
believe that Peugeot builds a superior car, than fine. I still challenge you to
take your claims to the Porsche NG and see what response you get from them.
It's all to easy for you here when I'm by myself.
What obvious reasons would those be? I've had more wheel time in more cars than
a number of older "adults".
I'd be tempted to make the same choice, but primarily because I think the RS6
retains much more "streetability" than the obviously track-bred GT3. Although
this is exactly the same reasoning why I would choose the standard M3 and F360
over their "stripped down" lightweight counterparts for day to day use.
I wouldn't dare, I actually envy a lot of the advantages Europeans have over us
Americans, like better public education and health care systems.
Yes, but not very well. My great grandparents were fluent, but my grandfathers
(both WWII vets) wouldn't allow the speaking of German in their homes after
their parents passed on.
Now that we talk about Rally, how many RWD cars do you know that use
RWD? I know several FWD ones, and in dry concrete they can achieve even
better results than AWD parts (because no loss of power, and there's
enough grip). No RWD cars there, only FWD/AWD.
Now why is that our little RWD fans? Wasn't RWD so superiour in handling?
1. Honda still uses double wishbone on everything except the civic-- I know
since my brother is an engineer for them-- you need to really learn what
you're talking about...
2. Horsepower makes a car fast, not torque, which just makes greater weight
have a lesser impact on the acceleration. And the Prelude SH, at 2800 lbs
is considerably lighter than your comparison GTi... and with 195 horsepower,
the 0-60 figure of 6.7 seconds (I've seen tests of 6.6 and 7.1 also) is
3. I didn't imply that this prelude could take on ALL porsches... simply
some of them to show that you can't generalize in a car's handling ability
by drive layout. If you want to use the example of a $125K+ Porsche
top-of-the-line supercar versus a $26K Honda... go right ahead... the few
lunatics that pay that much for a car will be proud.
4. As you stated before, anything over 1.0 g on the skidpad is questionable,
thus subject to scrutiny... 0.9 + g is a very high mark, but not that
rare... hence my skepticism...
5. BTW... since I'm an engineer, you can bet I check all my facts with
rationality and logic-- if you continue down the path of arguing with me on
my legitimate points, you will lose.
I know for a fact that the Civic and CRV don't get double wishbones and I was
told that the Accord lost them as well, although I won't argue with you over
it. I remembered the Civic losing the double wishbone setup and applied it to
all the models, and I'll conceed I may have made an error. But it doesn't
really have any relevance to the discussion.
If this were true than the last Prelude, with 15Hp more than my GTi, would be
faster, not slower.
The Acura TSX has 200Hp and more torque from a larger 2.4 liter i-VTEC motor
and can't break 7.1 to 60. If you had claimed 7.1 seconds for the Prelude from
day 1, I probably would've passed it on as at least somewhat reasonable.
I'll give you this:
1. Honda builds a damn good car
2. The Prelude was a great car that is sorely missed among import enthusiasts.
3. I was impressed with it's abilities when I test drove it
My only point was, you get what you pay for. The Boxster and Carrera lines
represent some of the best in the world, and I've never seen anyone who would
makes such broad claims about a Honda's capabilities without any kind of real
world testing to back them up.
If you had that kind of money for a car, I seriously doubt you'd turn down the
chance to own something in that price range.
But I've been able to show you the GT3 tests. A skidpad number of .88-.91 is at
the high end of where the best FWD cars place. Anything much higher than that
is subject to heavy scrutiny and I'd need to see a road test to have any faith
You havn't had many legitimate points. You've had a lot of andecdotal evidence
and wide claims about the Prelude's capabilities. Why don't you take a run over
to the Porsche NG and see how *they* respond to your claims?
1. Only the Civic Platform (CRV and Element and Acura RSX/TSX are made on it
also) was changed from double wishbone to macpherson strut front
suspension-- you know, the same kind used on all BMWs and Ford Mustangs).
The new Odyssey platform (shared with MDX/Pilot/upcoming SUT) also uses the
strut suspension-- but it was a totally new design. My point in this
comment was to highlight that you don't know much about what you're trying
to say. The accord, TL, and RL still use double wishbone and always have.
2. Look at the tests for an Acura RSX type S (200 HP, 2800 lb.) with a
manual transmission-- should be almost identical to the old Prelude-- if you
look, you'll see 0-60 numbers of 6.5 or 6.6 seconds... There are MANY more
examples--- like the '92-'94 Maxima SE 5sp man (3100 lbs, 190 hp, 0-60 6.7
secs), etc.... The TSX (sports sedan) isn't geared to run like the Prelude
and RSX (sports coupes) are. This is the range to expect-- your numbers
looked skewed somewhat (almost like Road and Track testing, which always
sucks). And horsepower always makes a car go faster, not torque-- ask any
other engineer-- or look at the tests of the new RX-8-- with only 147 lb-ft
of torque, but 238 hp, it runs with the G35 at 260 hp and gobs more torque.
3. You haven't showed me shit with any tests-- I've still never seen a 1.03
from any vehicle, but if any could do it, it would be a "supercar" from
Porsche or Ferrari.
4. As far as your 0.88-0.91 range being the limit of front-drivers, I've
seen tests of the mid-90s Ford Probe GT between 0.92 and 0.94, depending
upon the test and the tires used. If memory serves, the 4-wheel-steering
equipped late 80s Preludes hit close to the same mark.
5. My LEGITIMATE points were where this shit started, that there are always
exceptions, which was my response to some idiot who claimed that no FWD
vehicle could ever run with (handling wise) true sports cars like Mustangs,
Vettes, Porsches, etc... These were just examples to show that there are
exceptions-- and that things like suspension design and powertrain tricks /
technology can make exceptions to his generalizations.
I hope this experience has been educational for you-- looks like you need to
open your mind up a bit...
Between the Civic, CRV, Element, RSX, and TSX as well as the MDX/Pilot and
Odyssey, that's most of Honda's offerings that aren't using double wishbones.
Actually, I know quite a bit about this. The fact that I was mistakenly
informed about the suspension on certain Hondas (by a dealer!) has little
relevance, and I admitted to my mistake.
The RSX was tested by C&D at 6.3 seconds, .02 faster than my GTi, but it's
lighter, has 20 more HP, and a higher redline. It's also a bit more expensive
and not as "refined" or comfortable.
All I can do is repeat the test numbers I've seen. If you have other tests to
pull from, you havn't bothered to link to them.
The RX-8 is also lighter than a G35 with shorter gears and a much higher
redline. There's more than just output at play there.
I showed you the god damned C&D test where they produced the number. What else
should I be showing you?
I never said it was the absolute limit. I said that .88-.91 is the high end of
where I've seen FWD cars test. It's certainly possible for them to go higher,
but I still doubt the .96 number for the Prelude.
I'd agree with you here. I'm not disagreeing that FWD cars can be competant, or
that they have benefits. The only point I've disagreed with you on is your
claims of a Prelude being able to beat or match a newer Porsche.
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