300 M Battery Replacement?

Yep (well - a '99 Concorde - same car as far as battery replacement). The by-the-book procedure is to jack up and remove the passenger side front wheel, remove the fender liner, open the hood and remove the air filter box (for access to cable clamps from above), then scoot the battery rearward and bring it out thru the wheel well. Some prefer to leave the wheel totally alone, remove air filter box, then tilt the battery up lengthwise and pull it up thru that hole. In this case, I go by the book - too much chance of battery acid spillage using the shortcut method.

If you don't mind spending around $120 (total, including shipping or sales tax as the case may be), you might do what I did and get an Optima (you would want the Model 34, P/N 8002-002) so you won't ever have to mess with it again.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Nothing special about the Optima. Just make sure you pick up a fresh sealed battery [without vent caps]. NAPA and Wal-Mart batteries did well in the last round of tests by Consumer Reports. Sears batteries, now supplied by a new vender, did not do very well at all.

Richard.

Nothing personal, but you speak from total ignorance. The Optima is different in several good ways. (Let me guess - Consumer Reports said there was nothing special about the Optima. Figures.)

Optima (compared to "traditional" battery):

**VERY** **VERY** robust mechanically and electrically, and smaller physical size. Lasts 10+ years (vs. typically 3 to 5 years).

It is what is referred to as a gel cell, not liquid electrolyte like the batteries that you are ignorantly comparing it to. Also, FWIW, you can safely put an Optima in an occupied passenger compartment and not have to worry about toxic acid fumes endangering health or eating holes in fabrics. You can mount an Optima in any orientation.

Other than those things mentioned above - you're right - nothing speical about an Optima. :)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

I saw that Consumer Reports article. I was confused by it, since it the same battery was all over their charts under different brand names. But that's CR for you.

Most Sears batteries (including the Gold Diehard) are now made by Johnson Controls. They used to be made by Exide 4+ years ago, but Exide had some major quality control problems and contracted specifications were not met. Legal disputes ensued (customer vs. Sears Roebuck, and Sears Roebuck vs Exide) and Sears found a new vendor. JCI also makes Optima. Most auto batteries in the USA today are made by either JCI or Exide, with a handful of smaller players. I'm not sure if either is better now.

Point of clarification, the factory service manual (and the owner's manual for that manner) says not to remove the wheel. I think the aftermarket books say the opposite.

Sears sells the Optimas both yellow and red tops also yo can get them at Advanced Auto stores.

Originally posted Sept 2004:

Executive summary:

1) If you want a lot of reserve capacity, you probably have no choice but will end up getting a battery with lot of CCA.

2) Get the biggest, heaviest battery that will fit in your car.

3) The Reserve Capacity may be a better predictor of battery capacity than the CCA rating.

4) Unless the newer spiral-wound batteries have inherently higher energy densities, then their CCA and RC numbers are bogus and you are making a trade-off (lower CCA's and RC's) vs getting a battery that probably is better for off-roading and vibration tolerance but is no better (durability-wise) for passenger car use than a standard AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) battery.

5) When selecting a battery off-the-shelf, get the "freshest" or newest date-code the retailer has in the store. This may mean the battery you want is in the back room and not on the rack in front of you. Date code explanations for particular brands are further down this post. Consult the internet if you can't find what you're looking for. Perhaps the best time to buy a battery is when a retailer has sold a bunch to other customers (clearing their older inventory). This presumably would be during mid or late winter.

-------------------------

I don't necessarily believe that the Optima line of batteries is the "best" from an energy density point of view (the spiral design does not make the best use of the available rectangular exterior envelope compared to conventional battery construction). It might very well be that shelf-life was the over-riding design criteria for this battery. Shelf life is probably _the_ most important issue for retailers.

Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) and reserve capacity are probably the two most important numbers to look at when selecting a battery since other objective criteria, like MTBF, accelerated life tests (vibration and temperature extremes) are not readily available to compare across manufacturers. Unlike many other types of consumer products (digital cameras, car tires, many electronic product, etc) there are no third-party-operated web sites that track, organize, and tabulate the experience of consumers when it comes to car batteries, let alone take the batteries apart and make subjective comparisons between manufacturers (as has been done with oil filters for example).

This web site:

will give you the CCA number given engine size and # of cylinders as inputs. For example, a 3.5L V-6 (214 cubic inches) gives a computed CCA of 285.

It is generally the consensus that you should NOT sacrifice reserve capacity for the sake of having a large CCA. For example, if I had the choice between the following batteries:

A) 400 CCA and 120 minutes reserve capacity B) 800 CCA and 90 minutes reserve capacity

Then it seems that battery (A) will, in the long run, be a better choice because I'm not likely to ever need more than 400 CCA while on the other hand the extra 30 minutes of reserve capacity may actually be needed at some point. In other words, batteries can never convert un-needed CCA's into extra reserve minutes.

One thing must always be kept in mind. Once you choose a battery make and model, buy the "freshest" battery in store (which, it seems, will not necessarily be on the battery rack but instead in the back room).

I found the following web site to have useful battery information:

And particulary these pages:

This paragraph is interesting:

----------

7.6. Freshness

Lead-acid batteries are perishable and sulfate in storage due to their natural self discharge. Please see Section 16 for more information on sulfation.

Determining the "freshness" of a battery is sometimes difficult. Unless it has been periodically recharged or "dry charged", NEVER buy a wet Standard (Sb/Sb) or Low Maintenance (Sb/Ca) battery that is MORE than three months old or a wet Maintenance Free (Ca/Ca) battery that is MORE than six months old. Dry charged batteries are shipped without electrolyte, but usually have "sell by" dates of one to three years. Depending on the temperature, AGM and Gel Cell batteries that can be stored six to 18 months before the State-of-Charge drops below 80%. Please see Section 16. for more information on sulfation. Dealers will place their older batteries in storage racks so they will sell first and they do not have to maintain them. The fresher batteries can be found in the rear of the battery rack or in a storage room. For a wet battery, the date of formation is often stamped on the case or printed on a sticker. Always have a new battery tested, and recharged if necessary, before you leave the store. This can save you a lot of time and frustration if the new battery is sulfated or has a manufacturing defect.

--------------

Here is the complete section on battery date codes:

------------ The battery date codes for various manufacturers is perhaps the most useful information to have when you're actually at the parts counter about to buy a battery.

Some of the manufacturer's formation date coding techniques are as follows:

7.6.1. Delphi (ACDelco) and some Sears DieHard

Dates are stamped on the cover near one post. The first number is the year. The second character is the month A-M, skipping I. The last two characters indicate geographic areas. For example, 0BN3=2000 February.

[Source: Interstate Batteries]

7.6.2. Douglas

Douglas uses the letters of their name to indicate the year of manufacture and the digits 1-12 for the month. D=1994 O=1995 U=1996 G=1997 L=1998 A=1999 S=2000 For example, S02=2000 Feb.

7.6.3. East Penn, Exide (Champion), Johnson Controls Inc., Interstate, Mopar (Chrysler) and some Sears DieHard)

Usually on a sticker or hot-stamped on the side of the case. A=January, B=February, and the letter I is skipped. The number next to the letter is the year of shipment. For example, B0=Feb 2000.

[Source: Interstate Batteries]

7.6.4. Exide (some Sears non-Gold DieHards)

The fourth or fifth character is the month. The following numeric character is the year. A-M skipping I. For example, RO8B0B=February

2000. [Source: Interstate Batteries]

7.6.5. Optima

The first character is the year. The following three numeric characters are the days of the year. For example, 3123=3 May 2003.

7.6.6. Trojan

The date code on the negative post is stamped as the battery comes off of the finishing line, ready to ship out or go into stock. The code that is stamped is usually one month ahead. Therefore, a battery that comes out in March will carry an April date code. The code on the positive post is the manufacturing date that indicates when the battery was physically built but before the addition of any electrolyte. The letter is the month (A=Jan, B=Feb, C=March, etc.) and the number is the actual date. So "K26" means that the battery was ready for electrolyte filling and the first forming charge was on November 26th. Since the negative post shows A2 (January 2002), the manufacturing year has to be 2001.

7.6.7. Concorde

The activation date is on an orange sticker the shipping carton or email Concorde Customer Service with the serial number of the battery.

7.6.8. Rolls and Surrette

The four digit date code represents the day of the week (first digit), week of the year (middle two digits) and the year (last digit). For example, April 4, 2003 would have 4143 as a date code. The date code is stamped into the front edge of the cover of the battery.

------------------------

I can't see how all Spiral Wound AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries _wouldn't_ be lighter than regular rectangular batteries of the same external size.

FYI - Excide also seems to make a spiral-wound battery (Select Orbital):

Using the numbers from the specs for the Exide ORB78D-84, I get a predicted weight of 44 lbs, where according to it's specs it weighs 38 lbs.

I found some specs on "DayStarter" batteries (St. Paul, Minnesota) and their group-34 battery has 600 CCA and RC of 110 minutes.

The following was computed based on data from 19 batteries in a list of 12-volt passenger car and light commercial battery specifications (January 2004) from

Battery weight vs Battery volume:

Weight = 0.0716 x V + 2.9 (r = .86)

Where V is the volume (in cubic inches) of the battery calculated by multiplying the length by width by height. Volumes ranged from 432 to

734 cubic inches, and weights ranged from 34 to 56 lbs. So (as expected) battery volume and weight correlate pretty well.

CCA vs weight:

CCA = 8.54 x W + 212 (r = .807)

Where W is the battery weight (in lbs) and CCA is the Cold Cranking Amp rating at 0 degrees F. Interesting that it predicts 212 CCA at zero battery weight.

CCA vs volume:

CCA = .647 x V + 218 (r = .778)

Where V is battery volume (in cubic inches). Again it predicts a CCA of a little over 200 at zero battery volume.

Weight is slightly better than external volume at predicting a battery's CCA.

Regarding reserve capacity (RC):

RC vs weight:

RC = 2.88 x W - 23 (r = .885)

Where RC is reserve capacity (in minutes) and W is battery weight (lbs).

RC vs volume:

RC = .216 x V - 20 (r = .836)

Where V is battery volume (cubic inches).

Again weight is slightly better than external battery volume at predicting reserve capacity. Interesting that at zero weight and volume that it predicts about negative 20 for RC.

How does CCA correspond to RC?

RC = .317 x CCA - 83 (r = .968)

It's the strongest correlation.

So, what does all this mean?

1) Big batteries weigh more (tone down the wise-cracks) 2) Both weight and volume correspond with higher CCA's and higher RC. 3) CCA's correspond strongly with RC. 4) RC correlates better with both weight and volume than CCA does. 5) I'm thinking that Daystarter inflates their CCA by 200, and their RC by 20 minutes (judging by the zero intercept of these graphs).

Executive summary:

1) If you want a lot of reserve capacity, you probably have no choice but will get a lot of CCA with it. 2) Get the biggest, heaviest battery that will fit in your car. 3) The Reserve Capacity may be a better predictor of battery capacity than the CCA rating.

4) Unless the newer spiral-wound batteries have inherently higher energy densities, then their CCA and RC numbers are bogus and you are making a trade-off (lower CCA's and RC's) vs getting a battery that probably is better for off-roading and vibration tolerance but is no better (durability-wise) for passenger car use than a standard AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) battery.

You have to watch your pricing and model for the best deal. When I replaced my battery a couple of years ago, Advance listed the Optima 34 at $175 - out of the question. But I did an on-line search and found that there were suppliers with shared warehouses distributed around the country so that anyone in the U.S. was within 1 day UPS ground shipment

- price with shipping: under $120.

Advance only stocks the 34/78 (dual terminal - top and side) version to cut down on inventory items. IIRC, the 34/78 is about the same price as the 34, but you sacrifice cranking amps - so you're essentially paying for the extra terminals that you won't use. Better to shop on line for the 34 for the best bang for the buck. Not sure which one(s) Sears stocks and their pricing.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

If your examples (400 CCA, RC 120; 800 CCA, RC 90) are somewhat typical of AGM's, then it would seem that the Optima 34's 800 CCA (0°F)/1000MCA (32°F) and RC of 120 minutes stacks up pretty well. Also - it is considrably smaller (10" x 6.9" x 7.8") than the OEM 600 CCA, RC 120 AGM battery that it replaced - would that (smaller size, similar or better electrical performance) not indicate higher energy density?

Not to mention that the Optima will easiy last 2 to 3 times longer.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

M> 1) If you want a lot of reserve capacity, you probably have no choice

I just checked my FSM, and you are correct - I was working from memory - always dangerous. I just found it easier to remove the wheel for better access from the side. On a lift, maybe it would be just as easy working from underneath with the wheel turned to the right.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

NOT fun--will need to remove the right front tire and the panel that is part of the front of the right wheel well and it will make it a lot easier if you remove the air filter also--that way you will have access from below behind the battery and above it... more or less. Good luck.

MikeSp

-------------------------------------

There is little objective evidence to support the claim that the Optima will easily last 2 to 3 time longer. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the technology behind the Optima design, but a well designed and built conventional battery is far less expensive and will provide about the same level of performance. A sealed conventional battery shares the same advantage in that regard as a sealed Optima, at a far lower cost to the consumer.

Richard.

Therefore you assume it's not true? What is *your* objective evidence?

I think over the years that I have been reading three Chrysler- and LH-car-specific forums that I have seen a total of *one* post saying that someone had an Optima fail. If they were as prone to failure after

3 to 5 years as traditional batteries, that is the kind of thing that people would be posting about right and left as people love to attack a leader and a false claim. The absence of such posts, though not "scientific", to me is a huge indicator. Traditional battery failure posts occur constantly.

I would *not* agree that a conventional battery is far lower cost if the longevity of the Optima is realized. I can say that I would very likely have replaced my original battery with a good AGM battery had it not been as difficult to get to. I bought the Optima specifically based on the 10+ year expectation - not that it's that big of a deal to replace it, but I wanted it to be the last battery I'd buy for that particular car. All my other cars get convenional batteries put back in them when they go bad (and they do go bad - which, again, I can't say about the Optima).

Here's a question for the readership: Anyone here ever have an Optima battery fail?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

The poster who started this string has the OEM battery and he reports that it is still going string. My sister got 11 years out of her OEM Honda battery. Some conventional batteries seem to deliver the goods over an extended period of time. It is a proven and mature technology that can be quite cost effective.

Richard.

That is pretty good. My best ever was 9 years on the OEM Delco in my 86 Jeep Comanche. I've had a few batteries last 7 years, but 3-6 is more typical. My minivans are particularly hard on batteries. I've never had one last more than 4 years, and have collected twice on batter warranties. I'm not sure why, but they seem to be very hot underhood and I'm wondering if it is heat that is killing the batteries early.

My pickup trucks have always had much better battery life and they have nice open underhood areas and run much cooler than the tightly packed minivans.

Matt

After 6.5 years I finally decided to replace my 300M battery. Since the OEM was so good I let the dealer replace it when they quoted a reasonable price.

Optima batteries are simply AGM batteries that are spiral-wound.

Conventional car batteries (sometimes called "flooded") use flat lead plates that are mounted (or suspeneded) in liquid electrolyte. The plates are not made with pure lead because pure lead is soft and malleable (deformable) and so a lead alloy is used. These batteries need periodic servicing to make sure the water level doesn't drop below the level of the places.

AGM batteries have a starved electrolyte design because they contain electrolyte only in the sponge-like separator between the plates. The glass mat allows the lead plates to be sandwiched together, giving them stability. This allows the plates to be made with pure lead (not an alloy). AGM batteries are practically maintanence free (they lose practically no water). They stand up better to vibration and shock.

Spiral wound AGM batteries (like the Optima) are just a different way to make an AGM battery. They are said to be even better at vibration and shock resistance. I'm thinking that Optima's really only have an advantage in racing, off-road, and marine applications. I believe that a spiral-wound AGM battery will have a lower energy-density than a rectangular (stacked) AGM battery because of the volume that is lost due to the circular packing.

AGM batteries (particulary Optima) are used extensively by car modifiers that put lots of electronics and audio equipment in their cars because AGM batteries can be mounted in more positions than regular flooded-type batteries.

AGM batteries have a down-side compared to regular "flooded" type batteries. When high temperature or voltage causes AGM batteries to gas, they dry out relatively quickly because they have much less electrolyte than batteries with a liquid electrolyte reservoir above the plates. They also may not have as high a "reserve capacity" as flooded-type batteries.

There is really nothing written that explains why an Optima battery would last longer than a flat-stack AGM battery. It could be that there is a marginal increase in physical stability of the spiral winding, but unless you do a lot of off-roading, I can't see a regular passenger car putting a high vibrational demand on a battery that would make the optima stand out.

Remember again that AGM batteries will gas out their electrolyte if they get too hot or are charged with too high a charging voltage. If an AGM battery loses some of it's electrolyte, you can never put it back, and it will lose capacity that way. I have to wonder if even a flat-stack AGM battery is really something I want to put into my 300M vs a conventional flooded battery.

Here are a few tid-bits about Optima:

-----------

posted March 04, 2005

I've had nothing but bad luck with optimas and I'm not the only one around here. I would NEVER suggest using an optima in a case where it might be deep cycled (running no alt). Deep cycle these things once and they very rarely come back to life at all. There are plenty of other good batteries out there that will have better chances of longevity and actually cost less. Look at Deka, SVR and my favorite, Hawker.

Jump start an optima once or twice (if you lucky you get two chances) and in my experience it's dead as a doornail, that's all I'm saying, it has nothing to do with the fact that it's in a racecar per say.

----------

The Workaholic uses new technology called Absorbed Glass Mat. This design increases vibration resistance and allows the battery to be fully sealed reducing the possibility of corrosion or leakage under the tough conditions encountered off-road. Tests have shown this battery to have better vibration resistance than the Optima battery it directly competes against in the off-road marketplace.

Update: Interstate Batteries no longer makes their own sealed batteries. They sell Optima batteries.

-------

Nomen, your problem is you were born about a century too late. You really needed to be designing automobiles back in 1911. Then, today, we could marvel at your designs in the auto museums. I can just imagine it now, the dedicated enthusiast restoring an old 1913 model T with the optional 'Ford flywheel pump starter" and everyone oohing and ahhing over it.

Yep, right up there with the classic designs like window squirters that drain all the air out of your spare tire, electrostatic winshield de-icers that have their own separate alternator, user-mounting clamshell wheels that require a tube in the tire, the list is endless.

Ted