antifreeze concentrations and leaking water pump

1994 Plymouth Voyager, 203,000+ miles, 3.0 liter Mitsubishi engine, 2-wheel drive. Water pump has a slow leak. Noticed when losing heat.
Put in antifreeze and leak slowed. Fresh antifreeze seemed to help, not getting cold air now. Used the 5 year antifreeze. Won't extend what's in it but maybe gave the water pump a boost with a better kind of antifreeze and fresh antifreeze.
Now concerned about concentrations since mixed it myself in the cold and was guessing - forgot I had antifreeze indicators, duh. Now I see why 50/50 is popular in the stores pre-mixed.
First, the protection was below -34 F, too much antifreeze, then above a tad, 4 balls floating instead of 5 in the cheap gauge - too much water, now it's probably way below - too much antifreeze, and I am getting somwhere around 70/30 instead of the usual 50/50. My Prestone gauge does not go beyond -43 F and I am not finding charts on the web yet. Maybe the shop manual has a nice list of numbers and proportions. I gather -84 F is 70/30 protection. Is it proportional or non-linear?
Will this harm anything until I can get it back to 50/50? I read that at 70/30 the antifreeze can become slightly slushy which would make the water pump worse I would think.
Any ideas? I could change the coolant or is that silly since it's probably going to leak a gallon every couple of weeks at best.
At worse, the water pump would need to be replaced right away if complete failure and might as well change timing belt then since it has to come off anyway to get to the pump and the seals for the crankshaft? That's a bit of change at this point in the winter.
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You are fine. Pure antifreeze is bad, but as long as you have some water in the mix your freeze and boiling points are going to be OK. If you are at 70% antifreeze now just add some distilled water the next time some fill is called for.
Richard.

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Richard wrote:

Be REAL careful with what kind of "5-year" antifreeze you use! DexCool does not protect copper alloys or solders that were used in some older vehicles, including head gaskets with copper in them. It does protect aluminum and iron, so for some reason ALL the corroision focuses right in on the solder and copper in the system. I'm also very suspect of the "universal" long-life antifreezes (EG Prestone and Peak) for the same reason, because I tend to think that they're just modified DexCool. The one that does seem to be good for older systems is G-05, available from Zerex as well as from Ford and Chrysler dealers as "Motorcraft Premium Gold" and "Mopar G-05." For some strange reason, the Mopar G-05 is dyed orange like DexCool wheras all other G-05s are dyed pale yellow (almost clear.)
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On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Steve wrote:

...including head gaskets *without* copper in them. I've watched Dex-Cool and compatibles dissolve coatings, sealants and composite materials in head gaskets not specifically intended for use with Dex-Cool. Cost me a lot of money replacing a lot of head gaskets before I twigged to what was going on and did a bench test by applying Dex-Cool to a new head gasket sitting on the bench and observing the destructive effect over a few days' time.
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

Interesting- that's the first I've heard about non-corrosion deterioration with DexCool. I can't say I'm shocked and appalled, but I am a little surprised.

Have you tried that same test with G-05 and "classic green" silicate coolant? I'd love to see a triple test with the 3 types.
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On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Steve wrote:

Shortly after I did the bench test described, one or another of the Mopar mags or sites (SDAC?) did the same and came up with the same results.

Not with G-05 (didn't exist on the market yet when I was doing this) but green silicate conventional coolant did not affect the same materials that Dex-Cool ate.
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On Sun, 12 Feb 2006, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Uh-oh...*WHICH* "5 year antifreeze", exactly, did you use? If it was one of those that's labelled as Dex-Cool compatible, you have just set yourself up for significant component failures and resultant expense. Antifreeze formulations are not all the same, nor are they all compatible with all engines.

It will do neither. Note also that the arrangement of the water pump and timing belt in the 3.0 engine means your water pump leak can easily turn into a timing belt job if the leak is allowed to carry on.

How 'bout fixing the problem and installing the correct antifreeze formulation in the correct proportion with water?

The crankshaft seal neither knows nor cares the condition of the water pump or timing belt. If the crank seal is leaking, that's a separate problem. Cars, like all machines, require repair when they require repair. They do not factor-in owner convenience when "deciding" when to break. Delaying needed repairs often increases the extent and expense of the eventual repair.
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

This was SuperTech from Walmart. Does not say Dex-Cool on it.

I'm afraid you lost me. I was told that replacing the water pump required taking off the timing belt. Is this not true? I can replace the water pump without messing with the timing belt? If I understand you, I can replace the water pump now and not have to deal with the timing belt immediately also? The water leaking will ruin the timing belt quicker then?

I asked the dealer what else could be done in conjunction or parallel with fixing or replacing the water pump. I thought the service writer at the dealer asked a mechanic who said, might as well replace the seals [via the service writer]. I was under the impression that after taking off the timing belt, the seals would also be exposed [seemed so in the manual], so do everything at the same time: water pump, timing belt, seals. Maybe even belt tensioner since the vehicle has 203,000+ miles.
What do you think? I had the impression that since this is mostly labor, and it's probably due for maintenance, then replace the timing belt for sure, and maybe the seals.
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On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

What's it say on it?

True.
No.
Yes, for it's not "water" leaking. It's coolant.

You've got to be kidding. The DEALER?! Are you *trying* to spend 4x what the job should cost you?
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

Extended Life Up To 5 Years or 150,000 Miles
...for use with any antifreeze/coolant in ANY make or model of car or light duty truck with aluminum and other engine metals...may be added to ANY antifreeze/coolant of ANY make or model of car or light duty truck, foreign or domestic.
Drain out old antifreeze. Flush with clean water. Use a cooling system cleaner to remove all corrosion. Fill with recommended mix.
Contains ethylene glycol (107-21-1), diethylene glycol (111-46-6), sodium 2-ethyl hexanoate (19766-89-3), and sodium neodecanoate (31548-27-3).
Meets or exceeds ASTM D3306 and ASTM D4985.

It's not possible. Pep Boys wanted $750, an all day job. I did not ask the dealer yet for pricing. What do you suggest for a timing belt and water pump, labor? The parts are $200 if very good parts, less if so-so? Timing belt is around $64? Water pump, about twice as much if brand new? Less if rebuilt but in this case, difficult to say. Very high mileage vehicle but quite a bit of labor if that pump fails again. Or rather, I failed the pump by not changing the coolant in time. I'm sure I hastened its leaking.
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In article

Ingredients are identical to Dexcool.
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On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Yeah, well, the thing is, you cannot necessarily trust that "ANY make or model" advice on the back of your store-brand Wal-Mart antifreeze. It all resists freezing by means of the same chemicals (ethylene glycol and diethylene clycol); the critical differences are the anticorrosion chemicals, which differ from coolant formula to coolant formula and are *NOT* all compatible, miscible or interchangeable.
Major types of coolant, by corrosion inhibitor chemistry:
Conventional/silicate: The "green stuff" that until recently was the only stuff that could be had on the general public market.
Conventional/low-silica: Required for a number of decades in certain imported cars, during which time it was pretty much necessary to buy it from those automakers' dealers 'cause the parts stores only had the green stuff.
OAT, Organic Acid Technology: GM Dex-Cool. ___NOT___ compatible with systems not specifically designed for it!
HOAT, Hybrid Organic Acid Technology: G-05 is the primary variety, and is appearing on the general public market. This may or may not be what you bought. It is supposed to have greater compatibility with a wider range of systems than OAT coolants, but:
1) There is not a long enough track record to know how this chemistry reacts in the long run with older systems designed for conventional coolants, or with systems designed for OAT coolants, and
2) It is NOT the same as conventional or OAT coolants.
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

Don't forget the new green Prestone "All Makes All Models" stuff (no reason to think that it's the same thing as the WalMart brand in spite of similar wording - clever marketing people). I have a feeling that Prestone fixed the problems of DexCool with this new product, and it may in fact be chemically similar to HOAT. Possibly Prestone's and GM's way of sneaking the public away from DexCool over time and saving face and more lawsuits. I can't imagine they'd be stupid enough to repeat the DexCool fiasco. Jury's still out on the "All Makes All Models" - but I now have it in one of my vehicles as an experiment.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

AFAIK, there are precisely 3 brands of G-05 available in retail venues:
1) Mopar G-05 2) Motorcraft Premium Gold 3) Zerex G-05
And coincidentally, Zerex manufactures brands 1 and 2 as well. The "G" in "G-05" is for "Glysantin," which is a trademark of BASF corporation, and that is what makes G-05 unique among OATs and HOATs.

Zerex's packaging is the only HOAT/OAT type that I've seen which doesn't say "all makes and models" but DOES specifically state that it meets the requirements of engines originally designed for green silicate-type coolants. Take that as a "FWIW," but to me its worth a lot more than a blanket "all makes all models all colors" type approach that Prestone and Peak take with their new mystery coolants, especially since they've provided somewhere betweenlittle and NO detail on what they're actually made of. And by the way the parent company of Peak- Old World Industries- makes virtually all the house-brand coolants I've ever seen, so I'll BET it is same as the Walmart brand that started this discussion. I have also read that Ford specifically opted NOT to use a Dexcool type package and went with G-05 because they discovered the total lack of protection for solders and brass/bronze/copper-containing materials in some of their accelerated testing.
Call me a guinea pig- I've got a freshly built 440 in a 1966 Dodge and I'm running Zerex G-05. So far so good, no oddities yet. As a point of contrast I did once try Peak's universal long-life in another old car and (coincidentally??) started seeing seepage at multiple points on the upper radiator tank solder joint within a month. If it had been *one* point, I' would have believed it was a coincidence, but not with a whole bunch of seeps starting all at the same time! That car is back on conventional green coolant.
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Steve wrote:

Me too - I've got G-05 in my '99 Concorde *AND* in my wife's '99 Buick Century as of about a year and a half ago (really gutsy!). I put the Prestone "All Makes All Models" in my daughter's '96 Mercury Mystique. Li,e I said - I can't see them making the DexCool disaster all over again.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Bill Putney wrote:

I thought about putting it in my wife's 93 LH, but given the fact that the first-gen 3.5s already are prone to corrosion around the O-rings between the timing case and the block and hers has *never* had a problem there (knock wood) I decided not to take the chance.

Did you read my comment about what happend to my 73 Satellite's radiator after putting in Peak's "extended life" all-make-all-model type? About a dozen pinhole leaks at the solder along the upper radiator tank. Now it *is* an old radiator, but would the really *all* open up at the same time just by chance???? Color me dubious...
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Steve wrote:

No reason to believe that Peak's universal long-life is the same as Prestone's All Makes All Models - i.e., "marketeer's buzz words" does not equal "chemistry". They may in fact be the same, but just because they use similar non-technical words to describe it is no indicator to me of anything.
AFAIK, Peak was not a party to the DexCool disaster. However they certainly were aware of it - and maybe that was your point (relating to my comment that I can't see them making that mistake again).
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

D3306 is the standard specification for glycol gase Engine goolant for gutomobile and light-duty service
D4985 is a specification for the requirements of a low-silicate ethylene-glycol base engine coolants for heavy-duty engines. Its a specification that allows the use of coolants in heavy duty (wet-liner diesels, for example) without any initial charge of supplemental corrosion additive. (SCAs are usually nitrite additives that act to prevent cavitaion damage on thin cylinder liners).
So basically, those tell you.... nothing. ANY light-duty engine coolant that is glycol-based and low-silicate will meet 3306, and 4985 is a spec that says it has enough anti-cavitation protection for a heavy duty diesel as well.
The thorny thing about ASTM specs are that they're really "lowest common denominator" specs, and they don't tell you anything more than bare minimums, and certainly doesn't tell you about materials compatibility. there are other more interesting ASTM specs about pH stability, reserve alkalinity, etc. that would tell you more, but they're never quoted.
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The stuff sold by Chrysler has a bitter flavor added so that your pet will not die if it spills on the floor, etc.
Richard.
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Richard wrote:

Thanks a lot - was concerned about my cat going under my vehicle and nipping the antifreeze - I just scheduled an appointment this Thursday at the dealer for a fluid change. Just want the offical stuff since I don't know about the Walmart junk and the leak eating the timing belt quicker. I have a coupon they don't know about yet :)
But going to the dealer is like going to surgeon. I'm very nervous and so relieved if I can escape out of there at the end without leaving all my wallet behind. I did try some local nearby mechanics whose greed was scary. There are some nice, honest ones but they are a bit far away.
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