Chrysler 300M

Yep - there are two sides to every coin. I always laugh at people who buy something because the market value is low (it's what they can afford), and then complain when they can't get anything for it when they go to sell it. They obviously haven't thought it through, eh?

I don't know - there's something to be said for low mileage, especially if properly maintained.

On the 300M Enthusiast Club (forums:

it is generally agreed that the '01 and '02 MY's were the sweet spot - some parts prone to failure in earlier years were improved (re-designed and/or improved manufacturing processes), features added, then post '02, significant decontenting started. Then it's a toss-up between '01 and '02 - '01 had things '02 didn't have, and vice-versa. As that club and it's forums are 300M specific, come on over and search there - this kind of thing has been asked and addressed a lot, and start a thread or two there with remaining questions or for clarification, and plain introduce yourself.

One thing to be aware of: The engine is interference, so it is absolutely necessary to replace the timing belt at 100k-110k miles to avoid damage. What I'm getting at is to factor that in if you are looking at one that is due (to weigh in the price/use for bargaining), or to be a plus if, say, it has just been done (and can be proven). Around $300 in parts for the smart DIY'er, $600-900 parts and labor at a shop.

Oh - BTW - here's an '02, inferno red, 62k miles, that you just missed (owned by a guy that truly took care of it) because he just ordered a new Challenger:

Just to whet your appetite. :)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

My current '95 car tells you something about how long I keep a car. I'd expect to keep it 10+ years and wouldn't expect any significant residual value at that time. I favor a high mileage 2004 over say a lower mileage 2001/2, because it would probably be easier highway mileage.

Interesting club.

Yes I was aware of the interference design and certainly something to be concerned about. I'd need to see a repair invoice to confirm the belt was changed. The cars I'm seeing advertised mostly are up to 120Kkms (about 75K miles) so I doubt the timing belt has been changed.

There are quite a few coming on the market locally, mostly the 2004 model. Also the prices are being reduced very rapidly; as I look. I expect Chryslers unfortunate situation is part of the reason Chrysler products prices, used and new, are dropping here.

Thanks Bill for the very informative reply.

Hi Josh,

I have a 2002 300M Special (black on black). In the six years and

77,000 km I've owned this car I've had no real complaints, but road noise is greater than I would expect in a car of its class and it appears to be largely tyre related; I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done to resolve it. There have been other minor issues*, but overall it's been a good car and a pleasure to drive.

Cheers, Paul

• Brake dust, window trim went hazy, failed seat heater switch, a/c problems

You'll find something. You're going in with eyes open. Take advantage of the market.

Myself - I've got two 2nd gen. Concordes - my daily driver has the 2.7L engine - famous for sludging up and self destructing at between 60k and

80k miles - except mine has over 200k miles on it and is running like a top (insurance co. totalled it out last year for fender, headlight, and door damage and I bought it back). It's my daily driver - 80 miles/day. I'm in the process of deciding whether to replace the timing chain and water pump at the tune of *several* hundred dollars in parts, plus labor (either mine or a shops for probably an additional $400 or so) - timing chain would otherwise not be a concern - but the water pump is driven by it, and if the water pump bearings decide to go bye-bye, it's also good-bye timing chain and probably the engine (also interference) - *OR* just keep driving it and see how far it will go before . . . whatever . . . happens - kind of like being in the proverbial blender. If and when "it" happens, it will owe me nothing.

But the paradox is what can I buy that isn't a risk that's not going to cost several times what the timing chain/water pump job costs. Ah-Oh - there I go sounding like those people I was criticizing. Not really - I'm just trying to figure out what the next logical step is.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Yes - it is tires, Paul. Goodyears? Anyway - you might consider a good touring tire - something like the Cooper CS-4. I have the Cooper predecessor to that (the Lifeliner Touring SLE) on all three of my cars. They are *super* quiet and very long wearing and aren't that expensive ($111 ea. for 16" - more of course for 17 or 18"). They quieted my Concordes right down. If my SLE's ever wear out, the CS-4's are going on in their place.

There have been other minor issues*, but

A.C. problems - evaporator started leaking? Did you get it fixed?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Hi Bill,

The originals were Michelin Pilots as I recall. They were quiet for perhaps the first 500 km, then became progressively louder, to the point that I had to replace them even though they had considerable tread life remaining (frequent rotating didn't help at all). Based on the recommendations of the service technician, I went with BF Goodrich which are notably better in this respect, but still not great. Thanks for recommending the Cooper CS-4; when it comes time to replace these, I'll know which ones to get.

Yes and no. In this climate, I seldom need a/c but when I do, I opt for the Dodge Magnum R/T parked behind door #2. I do miss my heated seat when it's -30C.

BTW, the evaporator failed on both my '94 and '97 LHS, so I've come to the conclusion this problem is common to all Chryslers.

No, the problem is that anyone driving a high amount of mileage every year, say for example 25-30K miles a year, is being eaten alive by the fuel costs. They know perfectly well that their existing car has a lot more miles in it, but they just can't afford to fuel it anymore.

If your not driving a lot of miles every year then you can afford to drive a gas-guzzler and you will have a huge selection of used vehicles to choose from

We saw this sort of thing happen in the last 70's early 80's. I remember when I was 15 and my grandparents sold their '72 Olds Ninety Eight. I called and begged them not to do it, I pleaded that they just keep the car a few more years, just garaged, until I was old enough to go down there and drive it back. They said they didn't want to saddle me with such a big heavy car. It was one of the few times that I really was pissed at my grandfather and even today looking back I realize what a poor decision of his that that was. At the time I was probably not driving more than 3K miles a year, and I wasn't driving more than that for many, many years following.

Ted

80's. I remember

I can sympathize with you: My grandpa got rid of a great 1951 Dodge with Fluid Drive, then got rid of a 55 Dodge Royal tri-tone paint and Red Ram V-8. He just considered them "old worn out cars" and bought a brand new 64 Dodge Dart which he had when he passed away.

I purchased (new from dealer) a year-2000 model 300m (took delivery of it Nov 1 / 1999) and I currently have 81k miles on it. That works out to an average of 25 miles per day, every day for the past 3200 days (8 years, 9 months).

Here are the problems it's had so far:

- both rear door lock solenoids have failed (at different times) and have been replaced (both were out of warranty).

- One of the transmission speed sensors failed (during the warranty period).

- driver's side exhaust flex or ball-coupling (between cat and first resonator) failed recently - replaced it (and the first resonator) with aftermarket stainless steel replacement (magnaflow).

- I replaced the front sway bar end-links and bushings a couple of years ago, and they need to be done again.

- about 6-8 months ago one of the coil packs failed, and I bought a new one and replaced it myself.

I think that's pretty much it.

Here's what's been done as part of normal servicing:

- replaced the front rotors and brake pads (once or twice- I forget)

- oil changes (every 3 to 5k miles)

- at the first air filter change I swapped in a K&N re-useable filter and have been cleaning and re-oiling it once or twice a year for the past 7 years.

- I changed the spark plugs for the first time about 6-8 months ago.

- The serpentine belt was changed about a year ago, along with one (or

2?) idler pulleys (just for the hell of it).

- Have had manditory emissions testing on it (first one at 3 years of age, then every 2 years after that). Has always passed with flying colors.

- when original tires (horrible Goodyear Eagle's) wore out, I replaced them with Dunlop 2000 summer tires (and started to use dedicated snow tires in winter). When the Dunlop's wore out, I replaced them with Yokahama Advan S4 (this is the second summer on them I think) and they're a great tire and I'll get them again. Very quiet ride. The full-size spare is a Dunlop. Tire size is 225-55-17 (original tire size on bright-chrome original "Razor-star" rims).

- front differential fluid has been changed (once) and I think is due again for change.

- same for power steering fluid.

Here's what hasn't failed or what is still original:

- battery is still factory original

- engine coolant is still factory original

- transmission oil and filter is still factory original (but is over-due for service I guess)

- no body rust to speak of (I live in Southwest Ontario where the climate is similar to Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo). I garage the car every night, and the temp in the garage rarely goes below 50f in the winter. Some surface rusting or scaling is visible on the bottom inside door seams.

- I've had to replace one burned-out tail light, but I don't believe I've yet to change any other lamp on the car - even the headlights.

Here's what will need to be serviced at 100k miles (which at this rate will be in exactly 2 years):

- timing belt, and along with it (because there would be no extra labor charge) the water pump.

- in theory, the service guide says that the coolant is good for 100k miles, so I probably won't be changing the coolant until the timing belt and water pump are done, and the coolant would be done anyways during that type of service.

- Chrysler dealer service garage tells me the cost (part and labor) for changing the timing belt and water pump will be close to $1000. Can I get a reality check on that?

I'm thinking more that as they age, their value is going down. NOT that the 300m is a gas-guzzler. If the over-head console MPG reading is correct, then I routinely get 29 +/- 3 MPG on the highway at steady 70 mph cruise.

If by expensive gas you mean anything more than 87 octane, well, that's simply not necessary. My car has seen only the cheap 87 octane all it's life, and AFAIC that's all it needs.

Well, if mine is any example, there's nothing wrong with a '00 300m today, especially at only 40k miles.

I'm not sure if the '01 or '02 has anything extra on the '00 other than bright chrome window trim. I'm not sure if the '01 or '02 came with 17" wheels, or especially the bright-chromed 17" wheels, but if they didn't then I'd say that's a downer.

I'd say that for a 300m at this point, beyond simply miles on the car, pay attention to the condition of the exhaust, and note that the timing belt will need servicing at 100k miles. Ask if the battery is original, and check the condition of the tires. I would definately buy this car again new.

I wouldn't get the 300m "special" version because (I believe) their suspension is tuned even more stiffer than the 300m regular (that was supposed to be the primary difference with the 'special, along with a few more HP) and I wouldn't want a more "jarring" or harsher ride than what I've got right now. I think the '03 or '04 special had 18" wheels (which are getting a little on the absurd side, and you've got some tire-slap noise and in general more expensive tires to deal with in that case).

Do you have 18" or 17" wheels?

As I said in a recent post, for a high (to ultra-high) performance tire, that is also quiet, I recommend the Yokahama Advan S4. I see that Tirerack is selling them for $165 each (which is kinda steep - I don't think I paid that much 2 years ago, but maybe I did...)

If you drive the car in snow (and where the snow can be as high as scraping the bottom of the car at times) then the 300m really performs well with dedicated snow tires. I can plow through deep drifts and hear the snow scrape the bottom of the car as if it had 4wd.

Hi MPM,

The 300 are 17 inch and the Magnum R/T is equipped with 18s.

Cheers, Paul

That's towards the very high side of reasonable, but I guess not surprising for a dealer. I had my 3.2 (exact same engine as 3.5 - smaller bore) done about 2-1/2 years ago at an independent shop - I supplied the parts at around $360, and they charged my $300 flat rate (I think they were on the low side - but it included accessory belts and tensioners, upper and lower rad, hoses, and thermostat). I think fair price for t-belt and water pump is $650-$850 parts & labor.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Yeah - and rip your air dam off! :) What do you call deep?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Remember too that here in Canada, pretty much all retailers have not adjusted their prices to take into account that the Canadian dollar has been at (or within a few %) of par with the USD for the past year.

So maybe 3 or 4 years ago a price of $1000 (CDN) to change a timing belt and water pump would have equated to maybe $750 USD. Today, that same $1000 CDN equates to $950 USD.

This was exactly the case a few months ago when I was pricing just the parts cost (at Chrysler dealerships) in Ontario vs Detroit for part of the exhaust system for my 300m. I was looking at a 35% higher price here vs the same part in Detroit.

I was looking into some tires for a relative, and recommended Goodyear Firehawk 500's. A set of 4 (mounted, balanced, all taxes in) was about $425 - $450 in the Detroit area. Meanwhile in Ontario, the all-in price is more like $550.

I took that off my 300m a year or two ago.

An overnight blizzard that dumps maybe a foot of snow over-top an inch of hard-packed snow in a residential subdivision that might not get plowed until late next morning.

I missed where you said you lived in Canada. Some other pertinent info.: I used all quality aftermarket parts (Gates and Felpro) except for the water pump (and its gasket) and the hydraulic tensioner, which I got OEM from discount on-line dealers - so may have saved a little there relative to all dealer-supplied parts.

But again, remember that my parts and labor included replacing peripheral stuff like the radiator hoses and thermostat (thermostat is a PITA to replace on this car). I forgot to mention before, it also included both accessory belts and their tensioner pulleys. So if you're not doing the hoses, t-stat, accessory belts and their tensioner pulleys, that makes your price look even higher.

Here is another important fact: My parts included the hydraulic tensioner (not just the tensioner pulley) - which almost certainly is not included in the quote you got from your dealer - that part alone was $90.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

My '00 300m and '01 Ram haven't needed enough parts over the years for me to delve into the area of exactly who makes exactly what part, and which retailer in my area carries which brand, and which brand is better, or which brand is really made by someone else, etc etc etc.

I mentioned in another post that because of visible wear (I think at the

70k mile point) that I had the serpentine belt changed along with any relavent pulley or tensioner associated with the belt just to avoid future problems with those parts.

Are some of the parts you're mentioning (above) the same as the serpentine belt and it's pulley's or tensioner(s)?

If (as planned) I get the timing belt changed 2 years from now (at 100k miles), will the current 1 or 2-year-old serpentine belt and pulleys/tensioner(s) be re-used, or should I (again) replace them?

I don't know if my *very rough guestimate* of $1000 included any of those parts.

I believe it was $600 labor, and $300 parts, and probably the parts were only waterpump and timing belt.

Would it be considered normal or prudent to replace the hydraulic tensioner at the same time the serpentine belt is changed at the 70-75k mile mark?

My only point in mentioning those things was to build my case further that I thought the $1000 price was a little high - because my much lower price included many other incidentals many or all of which are not included in your price.

Yes. When I used the term "accessory belts", that is one serpentine belt (drives the alternator and p.s. pump) and its tensioner pulley and the V-belt that drives the a.c. compressor and its tensioner pulley. With those two belts ("accessory belts") there are no tensioner parts other than the pulleys (and their included bearings) as the tensioners are simply a manually adjusted rigid bracket and a pulley (no spring loaded self-adjusting mechanism) - IOW no tensioner parts on those two belts to replace other than the pulleys (which come with their bearings).

For those belts, it depends on how many miles they have and their general condition. As far as the tensioner pulleys, my personal rule of thumb for my two LH cars is to change them every second time I change the belts (only talking about the accessory belts and their tensioners there - not the timing belt and its tensioner - the timing belt tensioner gets replaced every time the timing belt does). Those pulley bearings do definitely eventually wear out.

I can't imagine it would unless you specifically asked that they be included. Generally if a shop or dealer quotes you something you asked for and either you or they don't mention a particular part other than the obvious (i.e., yes - they would replace the gasket with the water pump), then you can assume it's not included. Disclaimer: I could be wrong in this case.

My guess would be that it would be those and the timing belt tensioner pulley - that could be considered one of those "obvious" parts. But on second thought - you'd better ask. It would be stupid and dishonest of them not to include that in the job, but - yeah - ask them specifically what their quote includes. Don't assume nuttin'.

Apparently some confusion there: The hydraulic tensioner is not related to the serpentine belt. The hydraulic tensionser is the thing (spring-loaded rod) that presses the timing belt tensioner against the timing belt to maintain tension. You ask if is considered normal or prudent to replace it (but again, not related in any way to the serpentine belt). I would say it is normally not replaced, but I would add that it is a very critical part - if it were to fail, the timing belt could slip and you could damage your engine (valves and pistons hitting each other - not good). IOW - the likelihood of it failing is very low, but the severity of it failing is very high. Only you can make that call. You'd be saving $80-$100 by not replacing it, but there is some small risk (that the old one would fail). Like I said - only you can make the decision. I justified replacing mine by doing the legwork of gathering my own parts (simultaneously getting top notch parts and still saving a bit of money) and getting a good labor quote, so it fit within the budget that my wife and I originally talked about.

If you meant to ask if you should have replace the tensioner pulley for the serpentine belt when you replace the serpentine belt - again - a judgement call. Like Clint Eastwood said "The question is: Do you feel lucky". You could justify spending the additional $15 or so if you aren't in a penny pinching mode, or you could chance it and wait until the second belt replacement with some risk that it may start making noise at an inconvenient time. I will add that they usually start making noise with plenty of warning before they do something serious like lock up on you and throw the belt or rip it in two.

All of the above are my opinions. Any number of people could disagree with me on just about any point - and that's OK. Like I said - my opinions.

Let me add this summary on the belts and their tensioners because the original and aftermarket manufacturers are very inconsistent in what they call certain parts - it looks like they sometimes intentionally go out of their way to confuse the consumer in that manner. So here is my summary:

? There are three belts: Timing belt, serpentine belt (alternator and power steering pump), V-belt (a.c.).

? There is a tensioner mechanism associated with the timing belt that consist of two separately replaceable parts: (1) The tensioner pulley, and (2) The hydraulic tensioner. (1) should be replaced every time the timing belt is replaced. (2) can be replaced, but cost around $80 to $100, and most people do not replace it, and never have a problem - your money - your risk.

? Serpentine belt - has a tensioner pulley that should periodically be replaced - either every time the belt gets replaced or every second time it gets replaced - your call. Moderate chance it will go bad before the second belt is replaced, but little chance of damage - it generally gives plenty of warning (noise) before any serious damage is likely.

? V-belt - has a tensioner pulley that should periodically be replaced - either every time the belt gets replaced or every second time it gets replaced - your call. Moderate chance it will go bad before the second belt is replaced, but little chance of damage - it generally gives plenty of warning (noise) before any serious damage is likely. (And yes

- that was word-for-word what I said for the serpentine belt tensioner).

Here it is again:

TIMING BELT TIMING BELT TENSIONER PULLEY (sometimes just called timing belt tensioner just to confuse people because the timing belt tensioner pulley and the timing belt hydraulic tensioner together comprise the timing belt tensioner) - definitely replace this pulley with the timing belt. TIMING BELT HYDRAULIC TENSIONER - your option to replace or not

SERPENTINE BELT SERPENTINE BELT TENSIONER PULLEY (automatically includes bearing) - either replace with serpentine belt every time or every second time.

V-BELT V-BELT TENSIONER PULLEY (automatically includes bearing) - either replace with V-belt every time or every second time.

HTH!

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')