labor charge-by the hour or book???

But what if mechanic A can do the job in 3 hours, mechanic B can do it in 4 hours, and the book says 6 hours? This is more like MY experience of flat rate pricing. Fortunately I now go to a shop that doesn't do book pricing.

Lisa

Reply to
Lisa Horton
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The last one on my GM isn't THAT bad - but it took an extra minute. The real trick, though, was to be *gentle* as stripping out a plug is really bad.

I don't let the morons do such work on my cars - the problem isn't just removal, but over-torquing everything they can get their hands on.

I make sure the guy at the tire store uses a torque wrench. Even if it's a bit off, it's not the 100lbs+ that a full bore air powered tool can deliver.

It takes a LOT of force to warp a rotor. As in - some bonehead really jammed in on as hard as they could.

Lol. I find that the spark plug wires usually self-destruct every other change(live in a high smog area), so 6 plugs and a set of wires... $32 last time I did it. The neat thing was the 20 cent higher plugs I bought that had pre-set gaps. I verified them as correct. Nice touch.

The corners those techs cut are amazing, but nothing like auto body shops. You know, it's perfectly possible to repair a car without Bondo or sanding down a perfectly good panel to re-spray your cheap non-factory crap paint to get a good "blend".

I've seen pros shoot the paint right the first time and blend the panel itself - no sanding of good paint required.

The last accident I had(people keep running into me - go fig) I had to make a stink to have them strip and spray primer on the back side of the used fender(insurance company wouldn't let me PAY the difference for a new factory part - since dropped). Turned out to cost the company $40 more than a primed factory panel.

*boggle*

So cheap that they thought they could cut a few corners and I'd not notice. Did good work, though, but I'll stick with the other shop I usually go to.

Reply to
Joseph Oberlander

i sure would like to know where you got that info? there is a few like your parents but the most under warranty cars do go in and get looked at when the owners think it's covered the minute it's not then they let it go, then when they are stranded and it's costs a small fortune to fix and they are pissed off and of course it's the car makers fault for making such a p.o.s! then the tillwe syndrome starts! wasn't like that (till we) worked on that even though it has not been serviced in 70 k come spend a daty with any dealer tech and find out the real truth

t

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Reply to
mic canic

Your loss when you end up with a REAL problem. Sometimes ya win, sometimes ya lose!!

Reply to
nospam.clare.nce

Before I comment, do you have some examples of this?.. The assumptions I'd be making would be that the job is done correctly and that 'the book' is one of the industry accepted ones.. I'm not going to comment on something like 'Tune Up $39.95 - most cars' as seen at one of the local chains..

Poke around some at

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see what techs are saying.

Regards,

Jim

Reply to
Jim

Ahh.. GM.. inventors of the transverse V6 'to change the 3 rear bank spark plugs, unbolt the doglegs and **tilt** the motor over'.

I still remember when that came out.. thankfully, after the first year GM started including a 'hold hole' in the one dogleg so you could slide the dogleg bolt back through the bracket and into the 'hold hole' to keep the motor tilted while you reached back there and changed the plugs by feel.

Memories...

Regards,

Jim

Reply to
Jim

Heh. I have a *very* short plug socket for this job. The normal one doesn't fit.

Reply to
Joseph Oberlander

I've been going to this place for years. As a regular poster here pointed out to me in email, it's entirely possible that they've got common job times from the book memorized, and are in reality charging book rate. I don't know. This place has been cheaper than other places on the same jobs, although on different cars. They've never steered me wrong. When my alternator started making a whine, they initially thought it was, I think, the idler pulley or something like that. When it turned out not to be, they removed the new part, put the still good old part back on, and charged me nothing. They often do little fixes or adjustments for no charge.

They may treat me well because they know that they get all the auto work for all of our cars.

Lisa

Reply to
Lisa Horton

I do remember a specific instance, around 10 years ago. I knew how long the job took because I was waiting for the car at the shop the whole time. The time the job took was around 2/3 of the book time. The service manager told me that most experienced mechanics can finish most jobs in less than the book time. Maybe he was lying, maybe not.

If I can find time, I'll take a look.

Lisa

Reply to
Lisa Horton

I suspect they are charging like I did - "tempered flat rate" - in other words, the book is their guide, and they do not punch a timecard for every job.

I got into trouble with my dealer principal for not making workorders and charging out for minor fixes. Fifteen years ago it cost $25 to process a work order. That covers the cost of the paper, the time to fill it out, the time to process, file, and analyze the data. Unless I was going to charge $30 I was farther ahead to not charge anything.

Being a loyal customer USED to mean something. In today's world, I'm not sure any more.

Reply to
nospam.clare.nce

Well, if the average mechanic takes book time, thewre must be some that take longer, and some that take less. Depends how many good mechanics there are, and how many ess than good in the sample.

If the Median is used instead of the average, it does not matter how many are better than book, and how many are poorer - as the book would be half way between the "good" mechanic's time and the "less good".

In my experience, a good menchanic should consistently beat the book by about 20%, assuming he does not clean up the bay and polish his tools in that "job time". A mechanic who has done the procedure in question many times - to the point he knows exactly which tools he needs for which bolts, exactly where the bolts are, what order of removal is most efficient, and just exactly how to hold his mouth and how loud to grunt, may very well beat the clock by a good 50% on some jobs.

An example from many years back. I cannot remember the book time, but in 1971 Toyota had problems with cracked heads on the2T engine in the corolla. I worked as a mechanic at a Toyota dealer at the time - had roughly 2 years under my belt as a licenced mechanic. We ordered the heads in, and booked about 15 or 20 cars for replacement. I'd pull one car in, pull the head, and send it to the machine shop to have the valves switched, then pull in the next one - etc. I could line up 4 cars in a row through the shop. By the time I got #4 stripped, head #1 was back - and I would install it, drive the car out, push the rest forward and tear down #5.

I averaged less than an hour each after the 3rd or 4th job. Had I been on flat rate, I'd have done real well, as the book time was well over 3 hours. (and the first one took every minute of book time, plus.

Reply to
nospam.clare.nce

They may be doing exactly that. One of the two boss guys said once he's been working on cars for 3 years, and I can vouch for him not being a stupid man. The other boss guys is much younger, but he probably learns a lot from the older guy.

Sounds like he was penny wise and pound foolish to me, but I'm in no way an expert in this area.

Overall, I too am unsure. In specific instances, it CAN mean something. I've noticed that since I pointed out to my guys that they do get all the work for all the cars, my repairs seem to be completed a bit more quickly, and when I pull in, they take a look right now, not later. Then again, I also give the shop a big jar of candy to share every Christmas. Loyalty may not buy much today, but bribery, er, I mean incentives, still work :)

Lisa

Reply to
Lisa Horton

Seriously, I don't understand the level of debate on this topic.

You have a job, X. At the first shop, that job X is done for price A. At the second shop, price B. At the third, price C.

You are free to negotiate with the shop on the price of the job. You may find one that will negotiate, you may not.

You are free to decide to not have the work done, or to tackle it yourself.

How they arrive at their asking price is really none of your business. Period. The fact you're aware of something called a 'time-labor study' or that there are books published with standard labor hours to complete a job is absolutely immaterial. What counts is what you agree to pay.

It is assumed that you will comparison shop the job between shops, and find the one that combines the most favorable price with any other factor you deem important. I.E. Shop A can do the job for $100, but it will take a week. Shop B will do the job for $125, but it will be ready tomorrow. Shop C might offer to drop everything and have you back on the road in an hour, but charge $200.

It's your choice. Whichever one of those price-to-perceived-value ratios suits you best, you can go right ahead and decide for yourself.

If you agree to a price, have the work performed, and then pay the agreed-upon price, the deal is done. Anything else is simple buyer's remorse. You should ignore your impulse to follow through on buyer's remorse and try to renegotiate after the fact, lest you give the impression you want to renege on the deal.

Further, if you agree on a price, and it's a not-insignificant sum of money, and you *don't negotiate* beforehand, either because you're too chickenshit or ill-informed to do so *it's your own damn fault*.

Don't whine here.

--Geoff

Reply to
Geoff

The Boss guys have only been working on cars for 3 years? They are just young pups? Or have they worked on trucks or airplanes or something for a few years? Some young guys have a lot of ambition, and after 3 years they have not yet become "jaded" by the business. I left the business after about 20, and my kid brother has been in it for 30 now - and is about ready to get out. Owns his own shop and is looking for a buyer.

That's what I told him. In the ten years I was service manager the service department made a millionaire out of him.

And unlike Maxi, you don't tear a strio pff of them, up one side and down the other. Honey catches more flies than vinegar!!

Reply to
nospam.clare.nce

I wish life was that simple... one thing I try to do with the people I work with is have them think about what they are doing and ask themselves how they would defend it in a court of law..

I've had customers buy a car from an individual; the seller tells the customer that the engine, transmission and mechanical fuel injection have all been rebuilt. Of course, the seller doesn't have any receipts for any of the work.

The customer brings the car to the shop for us to fix what the seller calls 'a simple problem'. Simple problem turns into nightmare for customer.. seems that engine, transmission and mechanical fuel injection have NOT been rebuilt; at least not to the standards that either us or the factory would consider rebuilt. One example is a cam chain gear that has worn out teeth.. rather than replace the gear, the butcher who was in there last just flipped the gear over so the chain rode on the other side.

Long story short, when the car was done the customer paid with a check that he had already stopped payment on.. before he gave us the check.

We took him to court and was awarded the full amount of repairs (which is rare).. The judge told the customer that 'it sounds like you got a bad deal from the seller'..

In my experience, in this business you've got to be extremely concerned about what you're charging.. I wouldn't even consider mentioning to a customer who came in at 5pm 'on the hook' (towed in) that we could stay late and fix their car, but it would cost extra. The cries of 'price gouging' are deafening..

Regards,

Jim

Reply to
Jim

And few mechanics (or Service Technicians as they like to be called these days), spend what a lawyer, plumber or other professional does on education, training and licensing! If he quotes you 2.5 hours labor at $xx.xx an hour and finishes the job in 1 hour then he should charge you ONE hour. Doing other wise would make him a crook by any definition. If he wishes a higher price on a particular job then he should quote a 'Job' fee and not an hourly rate.

By the way, $75 is about average for top notch mechanics in my area that know what they are doing and stand behind their work.

Reply to
PC Medic

You wouldn't be interested in selling that bridge for this handful of beads would you?

Reply to
PC Medic

I'm not a professional mechanic, although I've known quite a few and have worked in the business. Most of the top guys spend as much time, money and effort as any other professional in keeping their skills up-to-date. The ASE-certified guys have spent a lot of money on their trade, preparing for their careers. Many of the dealership techs attend annual courses to bring them up to speed with each new model year's changes. Some of these courses are fairly involved, and are quite comparable to the boot camps that MCPs attend.

I can't believe your post is written out of anything other than sheer ignorance.

So in other words, you're making it a semantic argument. To-may-toe, To-mah-toe. BFD.

Your definition of 'crook' doesn't jibe very well with your definition of 'quotes', by the way. If somebody quotes you a price, and you agree, that's the price. Period.

Based on this post, I doubt you know the difference between a good mechanic and a bad one.

--Geoff

Reply to
Geoff

Well holding several certifications in the PC field and having a brother and cousin that each hold several ASE certifications (brother operates a major repair facility (12 bays) in upstate New York, Cousin car dealership and racing enthusiest) I have some experience in the costs involved in these fields. Now while ASE certification courses are thorough, I can assure you they do not compare in cost to Cisco or ATM certification or courses. I also have sufficient information to assure you that doctors and lawyers (professions by the way) bay considerably more that your ASE certified mechanic to become licensed in their fields (not to mention state licensing costs). Same goes for becoming a Master Electrician (been there done that in my younger days).

I could particularly care about your choice to accept facts. Especially considering that based on this statement, your post appears to be written out of anything but shear arrogance. Obviously just a mecahnaic who felt your field was being slighted by my statement (which it was not).

No the argument is based on rate per hour vs. flat rate. If you quote per hour, and can not finish the job in that time frame, then be prepared to eat it just as you would expect Mr. Customer to eat the additional cost if you went over the quoted time. This also enters a legal area as many states have laws stating that a signed quote is a contract to perform "listed" services for the price quoted. If you do not provide 2.5 hours of labor, then in many states you may not charge for it (exception being that I know of known that do not allow rounding up to next whole hour).

And if you quote states you with provide specific goods or services (such as

2.5 hours labor) for that price, that is what you must supply...period!

Based on your response, you have yet to display much knowledge about anything other than shooting off your mouth.

Reply to
PC Medic

But mechanics don't charge anywhere near what these other professionals do for their services.

Around here, a lawyer on a per hour basis will cost over $300 per hour. On a contingency basis, the lawyer will get 1/3 of the total settlement regardless of what the plaintiff actually receives. For that 1/3rd share, the lawyer may have merely filled out some insurance claims forms and spent some minutes negotiating on the phone with an insurance claims adjuster. The lawyer can in some cases be making in excess of $10,000 per hour.

A plumber is likely to cost about $50 and hour more than what the prevailing labor rate is for auto repair and there is no way he's got as much spent on tools as the auto mechanic does.

Doctors? heh... The ones I've been to get around $1000+ an hour, so they're not even in the same discussion.

If he quotes 2.5 hours, it's a 99% certainty that he got that 2.5 hour number from a labor time guide such as Mitchell or Chiltons. The time studies used in these labor time guides are based upon the job being done using hand tools. If the mechanic has made an investment in air tools and/or other specialty tools that speed the process (and that usually IS the case), he's certainly entitled to the fruits of his increased productivity. If you believe that increased productivity shouldn't be rewarded, by all means, enjoy having to wait 3-4 weeks for a service appointment.

If you re-read the original post, it WAS quoted as a "job." The labor book said the job takes 2.5 hours per side.

Ummm... that $75 would be the -shop- labor rate. IOWs, you are being charged $75 per labor hour for the shops facilities and services. That $75 is spread amongst the mechanic, the service writer, the billing clerk, the janitor, the receptionist, the lot jockey, it goes towards state, federal and local taxes, workmans comp premiums, shop insurance, heat, lights, water, shop supplies, the mortgage, etc., etc., By the end, the mechanic is lucky to get $20 an hour, and at $20 an hour, he'd damn well better be at least 150% productive.

As for how this subject originated, the OP dropped their PT Cruiser off Wednesday afternoon, the shop did (supposed) five hours of work which they began (supposed) on Thursday. The shop called at 11:10am on Thursday to advise the customer that the car was finished. The OP finds this perplexing and suspects that they were ripped off or gouged.

Has it occurred to anyone that this shop starts work at 7am?

Reply to
Neil Nelson

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