Ethanol / gasoline mix

I don't own a Corvette yet so I'm just wondering with all the talk about ethanol / gasoline mixes, is it safe to use this in stock Corvettes? Any limit on how much % ethanol to use in the Corvette for acceptable performance? Typically I see 15% ethanol mixes but have been told there is as high as 85% ethanol mixes (I have yet to see it where I live).

Reply to
RT
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Runs fine in my '64, but you need to have a vehicle that is made to burn 85% to go much over the 15% blend in most combustion engines.

The only problem I've seen so far is that with the old vented systems you do get some evaporation loss in this hot weather, that's not an ethanol problem though.

Reply to
Dad

Dad, if I understand you correctly does that mean it's safe to run 15% or less in the C5 or C6's ? I ask because I may buy a C6 or C7 coupe before I retire.

Reply to
RT

Not sure I understand your question, is it safe, not if you hit something while driving it with any type fuel. Will the Corvette run on blended fuel with ethanol, yes, and I look for the percentage to go up shortly.

With close to 100k miles on C5s and this C6 and having bought fuel in more than 2 dozen states, of which blended is all some sell, they haven't missed a lick so far.

I don't see your issue???

Reply to
Dad

Ok, that seems to answer my question about Corvettes using blended fuels without a loss/significant loss in performance. Thanks.

Reply to
RT

Not so fast Red Rider.

You're OK in C5s and C6s with the blends. C4s with Multec injectors can't go above 10%. Destroys the insulation in the injector coils. Then, the performance takes a hit.

Some of the plastic parts, floats and gaskets in older carbs don't play well with Ethanol but a 'kit' job will repair the damage.

-- pj

Reply to
pete

That's is what we were refering to, C5 & C6.

Where are you getting enough ethanol to distroy the insulation in an injector? I'm not sure it's just the ethanol that is eating parts and believe it has allot to do with the blend.

Been there, done that, but we were only talking about C5s and C6 with a possible C7 thrown in.

Reply to
Dad

On or about Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:22:53 -0500, RT wrote or did cause to be written:

WHOA!!! Dad didn't say that. He would have if that is what you asked because he LOVES ethanol but you just asked if it was safe and it IS safe to use in a modern car. But you do take a big performance hit. Ethanol has about 33% less energy per gallon. That is offset somewhat by its octane rating of 100+. In a C6 you should expect about 10 RWHP less running a 10% ethanol mix. You also get 0.5-1 mpg less mileage.

And before the usual crowd chimes in "Well I never saw any difference" this is physics. The fact you didn't observe the physics doesn't change the physical properties of ethanol. Look it up. Even the ethanol producers acknowledge it doesn't provide the performance or economy of gasoline.

Reply to
Dale

Ethanol isn't necessarily my love in life but Corvettes and travel are. I started a 10,000 mile trip in a new 2004 C5, less than 400 miles when I left. My travel took me from Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg Museum in Auburn Indiana to Portland Oregon, then to Greenville South Carolina.

Many of the western states were running 10/15% ethanol and mileage varied as much by driving at night as it did with different brands/blends of gas. Average for the trip was 28.8, high was 32 mpg with Shell w/ethanol. Both the tank before and after were better than the low of 27.2 and major versus unheard of brands seemed to be little different. Driving to show its difference is just not accurate enough to prove anything much.

I will not try to address the performance change if any, my seat of the pants dynamometer is not any more accurate than anyone else's on here.

It's strange that a new performance gadget can be added and "it sure feels stronger", but seldom does it feel less. The difference just isn't enough to worry about for the new gadget or using ethanol. You just can't measure the difference without it being done in a lab, and I haven't seen a good test yet, most are trying to prove their point rather than fact.

By this all I can say is Dale is right, plus ethanol is here to stay, the greenies said so.

Reply to
Dad

I guess I misinterpreted Dad when he said it didn't miss a lick but okay, thanks for correcting me. Your further explanation (omitted above) about the performance of ethanol makes sense to me tho I have no facts or experience to back it up. Even in my present cars I can't notice any performance sacrifice but that's only because I don't drive them hard anyway so I probably can't notice it therefore.

Thanks for your info and correcting my errors (and to Dad too).

Reply to
RT

Some farmers are makin' some money, and geopolitically ethanol isn't a bad idea either. At today's prices, the sultans and oil company sheiks are still gettin' theirs though.

AJM

Reply to
CardsFan

On or about Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:05:02 -0400, "Dad" wrote or did cause to be written:

10% ethanol is hard to notice. That's 0.1 * 0.3 = 3% less performance and economy. Again, because of the increase in octane rating, it might only be 2.5%. With a 400HP engine that's 10 hp. Hard to notice. With the current 28mpg highway rating it's 0.7mpg less. You're right that driving habits make a far larger impact. E85 will be more than 100hp and 7mpg less. THAT will be noticeable.

But the environmentalists have lost very few battles in the past. Who can argue against baby seal eyes. Facts don't matter. Say ethanol is good for the environment. Doesn't matter that we will erode farm land that took thousands of years to develop. Doesn't matter that it takes a lot more energy to grow it than to refine oil. Doesn't matter that it puts more CO2 into the atmosphere than oil. JUst say it's good for the environment and that should be enough. Ethanol is here to stay.

And the news on the TV this moment is how oil companies are rethinking increasing gasoline production since the President has said he wants to decrease usage by 20% and replace it with ethanol. No matter that this would take all the farm land currently used to grow corn for food resulting in skyrocketing meat prices. The oil companies are listening and shelving plans to increase production meaning gas prices will increase drastically in the future when we don't see that

20% decrease in demand. Sometimes you just want to scream "WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!" 10% Ethanol is safe to use but I will gladly pay 30 cents more / gallon for real gas.
Reply to
Dale

It's worse than just that. Since the ethanol is oxygen bearing, the O2 sensor will detect its presense as a lean condition and the ECM will richen the mixture. Thus, you use more fuel and pollute worse.

I live right on the edge of the rural/city boundary and have been able to choose to buy "city gas" with 10% ethanol or normal fuel at home. All my vehicles get noticeably worse mileage on ethanol mix.

Plus, while running ethanol fuel, I lost a drag race to a Subaru Impreza WRX so it must cut the C5's power by at least half ;).

But I am not a chemist.

-rev

Reply to
The Reverend Natural Light

If there were not to many kids in the WRX it would have beat you anyhow. ;-)) You sound like you're a better chemist than you are a drag racer. :-((

Reply to
Dad

Can't speak to the C6 but I do have some C4 & C5 experience that tells me we are hunkering down a dumb path. Excess amounts of this stuff causes brain damage.

First off: I favor occasional, small amounts of ethanol -- from an Oak barrel, aged 8-12 years. Also OK in malt beverages or in a glass of wine. Also good for sterilizing the skin prior to a blood draw. Don't care for Everclear or for putting it in my gas tank.

As a Californian, I pay a good share of the tax hit to support the current 'Ethanol Party.' It's a sort of charity since the stuff doesn't transport well enough to add to the California fuel supply. We use just enough to replace the MTBE that we lost a couple of years ago. (6-7% Ethanol blend is typical here). For this we take a 5% hit on mileage in comparison to when we used MTBE.

BP is working on ethanol from Calif. sugarbeets which will probably put the screws to our beef industry. In exchange for this "good deal", BP and Shell want to drop the refining capacity in this state by 10% -- another good deal at the pump.

In addition to federal taxes, I also pay at the pump since total gasoline consumption is higher and our cost of gas augmented with 6% ethanol is about 10% a gallon higher than what most of the U.S. pays. So, there's not much to be said for the goodness of Ethanol out here. Oh yeah, the air is dirtier since we started using this stuff. (and the Feds have been yelling at us for a couple of years over that problem.)

I think that -rev's 50% hit on C5 performance may be a bit high but, I notice a definite performance hit on desert hill climbs with the C5. The enrichment that -rev is talking about is significant and probably saves the engine. On a hard climb, using Calif. fuel, I occasionally hear that single ping as the retard takes effect. Never have that happen coming back home with Nevada or Utah fuel even though the return trip is usually more "heat soaked" with higher loads on the engine and a/c.

As rev says, "it gets worse..."

Our Ethanol-drunk politicos have cut off the major research dollars for an MTBE replacement. Such a replacement would have given us cleaner air than ethanol, better fuel economy and for the C5, better hot-weather, uphill performance.

Get a good read at:

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Halvorson does a good job differentiating between pre-L98, L98, LT1/4 and LSn cylinder heads and sound fuel choices for each.

No BS, just Halvorson's opinions based on sound science and experience.

-- pj

Reply to
PJ

it is the law in Seattle every winter - 10% mix

ssome

Reply to
ssome

Reply to
Bob I

In my '96 Toyota truck (10% ethanol mandatory in my area of Oregon), the mileage dropped about 30%. Thought something else may be wrong and had a complete tune-up to the tune of $600 -- helped a wee bit but still down about 25%.

Thankfully I work only 4 blocks from home and only drive about 250 miles a month in my truck -- but still it seems pretty self-defeating to claim environmental responsibility but go far less on a gallon.

We need to invest in research that will completely replace transportation using combustibles.

Here's waving to ya - \||||

Owen ___

'67BB & '72BB

-- not affiliated with JLA forum in any way -- alt.autos.corvette is original posting -- ___

"To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring." -- Ann Hayman Zwinger

Reply to
Barking Rats

And all for $3.80 a gallon

Reply to
Speaker of the Truth

Ethanol is NO solution. Just the government kissing the asses of the midwest corn farmers. The rest of us (including the environment and our car engines) are being screwed.

Vito

Reply to
Uncle_vito

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