That's correct.
Stranded cable insulated with a single layer of PVC or vinyl ("battery cable") is *vastly* cheaper than stranded-strand cable with a foil wrap and hypalon and/or silicone insulation ("welding cable").
You did not read what was written. I said "Cheep" as in $150 US and under. I'm not talking about name brand builders that are using new parts, that will work together. I'm talking about idiots that take apart a Used 4AGEZ starter and make it in to a mini-starter for a small block Chevy. That is a used starter motor intended for a super charged 4 Cylinder that displaces 98 CI. Now where near the resistance when hot as
350 CI.Nor are these cheep units gear reduced. Which is what is used in high end race cars. Not to mention they are made from all new parts.
Personally I would rather use a conventional High Torque Chevy Starter over a gear reduced mini-starter. The only time I install them, is when doing engine conversions where regular starters will not work. Charles
Welding Cable is fine stand, while battery cables are thich strand. Charles
Which means that welding cables are more flexible, nothing more. Wire strand size doesn't make ANY difference with DC current, only the total cross-section of all strands added together. If you were talking 500 megahertz radio signals, then there might be a difference.
Don't believe everything you read online, though. There are some people who believe in "uni-directional" cables for stereo gear... nevermind the fact that the signals carried are AC!
Not at DC. Skin effect is a high-frequency phenomenon, at DC the entire cross-section of the cable carries current.
Phooey. A NASCAR engine has to fire up what, maybe 10 times in its LIFETIME of one week!?!? And even then, you frequently see cars that cannot re-fire during a race and have to be pushed. Weight reduction is far more important than reliability for a NASCAR starter.
I also like Nippondenso starters, but Hitachis are low on my list. The point is that what works for NASCAR doesn't mean SQUAT for a street/strip car or even an amateur strip-only car, which has to start reliably HUNDREDS of times during its lifetime.
>
Let's just throw the principals of Electrical Engineering out the window here. No wait doing that would be moronic.
Look at a few facts: Automotive electrical systems run off of either:
6, 12(standard), 16, 18(16 and 18 are used in some motor sports), or 24 Volts (US Military uses 24V electrical systems). Yet have a high Amperage usage, with low voltage. Voltage drops will greatly effect automotive systems.Where as something like a ARC Welder runs on 220 3 phase electric. Where you not only have Very High Amperage, you also have High Voltage. They larger the units use more Amps then a cars electrical system could handle.
When a electrical system is put together for about anything there are factors they look at: Type of current (AC vs DC, 50HTZ vs 60HTZ). Current draw, normal, low and Peak. Drop (how much will be lost thru length of run), tempitures, as well environment.
Welding Cables were never intended to be used in Cars. The insulation was never intended for the under hood tempiture. Battery Cables were. In many cases the same size gauge of Battery Cable will have twice the insulator thickness.
Welding Cables were never designed for the torsional or tension stresses of an automotive environment either. Where as Battery Cables were. The much fine strands of Welding cables break apart at the terminals when under these stresses. The thicker stands of battery cables are more resistant to this.
Then there is the fact that people will take something like a #1 or #2 gauge welding cable to replace something between #4 to #10 gauge Battery Cable. While it is true that the longer the run, the larger the gauge (trunk mounted batteries for example use around a #4 gauge), grossly over gauging your Cables will do nothing positive for you.
Another thing, just because a Industrial Cable like Welding Cable, cost more per foot (or meter) does not make it any better for the application at hand. Part of the cost of welding cable is the amount of copper in it, as well as the added manufacturing costs.
Over my years of building cars, working on race cars, working on vehicles with winches, and off road vehicles I have seen: Welding cables split long before battery cables would have. Welding cables broken to only a few stands at a terminal, as well as welding cables corroded past usage, in an environment they were not intended for.
Most major Winch makers, and Equipment Fitters recommend using Battery cables over welding cables for the equipment they make or sell. Some will not warrantee electric winch motors if welding cables are used.
You know, you can wire a car with Romex (110/115VAC) household type wiring. In either 12/2,12/3,14/2,14/3 types. It will work for the short term. Is it correct? No. Is it "safe" ? No. Charles
I hadn't thought of that when I was thinking racing starter. I'm less worried about 10 pounds of weight reduction than I am about getting it refired. It's an automatic at a dirt track, so a push start is out...
I head to the parts place tomorrow to get a truck starter like Dan recommended. That should do me...
Ray
I don't believe every thing I read on-line, or off-line. On line you will find all sorts of people who post info regardless of facts.
Yet on the topic I was talking about the information on it should be on-line, and easy to locate.
I have not heard of people using uni-direction wiring in audio systems. Although I could see where Feedback from one item such as inputs for multiple amplifiers could be an issue. As for control signals, it should not be an issue. Most Uni-directional audio stuff I have seen is where a unit has different output and input jacks, instead of a combined jack. Charles
If you use a Power Glide transmission TCI has a "Circle-Matic" kits that will make it so you can push start. I do not know if they make the same thing for TH-350 transmission. Charles
Powerglides are like Vortec heads... in the "not allowed" list. Silly rules. ;)
The silly part is originally it was to keep costs down, but a lot of the stuff on the list is now common and the stuff we have to run isn't even that cheap - I can find TBI intakes and carbs for SBC's at the junkyard but I must run a 2 barrel....but them's the rules. There are places that'll port a 2 barrel manifold for $600. Somehow that's cheaper than an Edelbrock Performer for $99....
Ray
I'd rather not, but that's exactly what you did with your imaginative little hallucination about welding cable being unsuitable for use as automotive battery cabling because it's "designed for higher amp draw situations".
Molten welding spatter is a great deal hotter than anything found under any hood.
Give it up, Chuck. You stepped in a very deep pile of doo-doo by posting ignorant blather about cable "not designed for lower currents". The longer you stand there and try to insist you didn't step in it, the more people are going to point and laugh. Just quietly wipe off your shoe and move along.
DS
Ray:
You might want to check out a Delco starter book (not website). Some of the older books had specs in the back and this may help your cause.
Charles steered you right on basic application. Many Delco catalogs have spec charts for "make it fit by spec" parts.
Batteries are one of these items. Believe it or not, Delco batteries fit rather well in non-GM applications, including Ford. Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 27k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 143k and still going.... '91 S10 Blazer 4.3Z
Normally you're an opinionated arse, but for once I agree with your assessment. What most people don't realise is that the only time stranding in wire affects electrical delivery is when dealing with high-frequency high voltage where the "skin" effect is predominant. That condition won't be found in a car. The main benefit to stranding is that it allows flexibility for fitment and vibration. The only real factor is the cross-sectional area of the copper conductor itself.
:)
The rest of me is normally opinionated, too.
Ayup.
Actually, strictly from the conductor point of view, only amps matter. Wattage isn't a factor to a conductor.
True.
That's a good point. I wouldn't know but it certainly sounds reasonable
Not so sure this is the gospel here. Welding cables are made to withstand far more repeated bending, pulling and general movement. That is why they have the greater number of finer strands. That design is superior to handling stresses in general. Just like when I select networking cable. Most applications get "solid" conductor cable, and patch panels get stranded due to the potential of being handled a lot. That's why both solid and stranded networking cable often has nylon cording all along through it, to resist stretching. But anyway I'm getting away from the subject. Back to the topic, as it concerns specific stresses under the hood though, I agree you still may have a point.
But, else being equal, will not hurt either.
Absolutely true. Just like human brains can fire more neurons in a given space by having the surface of the brain not be flat.
God this could get ugly if an audiophile were to drop in. Have you seen any of those fights in those types of forums? Whew. Makes political and religious forums seem tame.
In audio, as it concerns speaker cable or any analog signal cabling, the current path is alternating. So any claim that a cable is optimized for the single direction that current flows is, well, flat out bogus. You should see the religion some people have on this stuff though. It's a real ugly scene.
It would be a good point if it were correct, but it's wrong. I'll scan and post the relevant pages from the Belden master wire and cable catalogue tomorrow if I remember, so you can see the differences in insulation and construction between welding cable and battery cable.
That's what allows people like Chuck to blather on and not get questioned more than they do -- he says stuff that "sounds reasonable" to people who don't know one way or the other.
Of course it is not. If there are "torsional or tension stresses" on the battery cables in your car, then you have MUCH bigger problems than whether they're made of stranded or stranded-strand construction and how thick their insulation is!
Right, right, and right.
Right again. This notion that Chuck has put forth of cables designed for high current being somehow unsuitable for lower current is just asinine and cannot be supported by any of the principles of electrical engineering he claims to hold so dear.
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