That does happen.
I have not seen a crimp lug for top post batteries that has a stinger
on it. Most welding cable's I have seen were used with top post
terminals. Not side post, or Stud terminals.
Seams like alot of extra work, for something un-needed. Using the
proper gauge of battery cable, put together correctly will be less
head-ache. I still have been told contrary to what your saying by some
credible people. Yet who is ever 10000% right, 10000% of the time?
My father & My self ran that back in 1989. When he had a BBS. We
had a room dedicated to computers, plus computers in 2 different rooms.
Considering my father was a E.E. who worked with computers, I never
questioned him about why. I just did as I was told. His house, his ducts,
you know what I mean?
My father got the cable from the design house he worked in.
Left overs from when they had installed some. He brought home the
crimping tools as well as the proper striping tool.
Back then in 1989 I thought it was as cool as it got. Being able to
network a game and data files from one system to another with out having
to spend ultra high bucks, or use a slow modem. Hell by comparison my
Cable 'modem' blows away my old Hayes from way back when, like a Yugo
against a C5-R GTS Class Lemans car.
You don't have to worry about people cussing me in the future at
that house. I was a bastard we we got rid of it. I Actually cut the RG's
we had run at every visible junction and yanked them out. Including a
couple of extra TV cable jacks I had put in. Guess what I did for spite
was a good deed after all.
when I moved I took 33 computer cases to the metal yard. I disposed
of a 1/4 of boards (mother and cards), chips, and drives. I should have
kept one of the old Maxtor 50 MEG! hard drives to show my grand kids,
but I wasn't thinking that far a head. I was thinking, man is all of
this going to fit in to a storage locker, my apartment, my shop, and my
If a breaking motor mount stretches ANY electrical cable, the person who
built the car was an idiot.
And if you're proposing that regular old battery cable would somehow
survive it, I'll laugh in your face.
I'm not saying a battery cable will suspend a motor. Yet the sure
will stop one from coming out even when using a fork lift.
What it will do, if it was laid out properly to begin with, is
twist on a torsion axis. Doing so with out snapping apart. Usually a
good cable will be able to maintain that for 100 laps or so.
Believe me I have seen things shift further then any one would
conceive on a race car. Mount A breaks when the car bumps the wall.
Mount B gets fatigued, and lets go, mount point C starts ripping from the
I have found engines jammed against the passenger side frame rail, with
cracked distributors to boot.
One of the joys of race cars, or any car built to a higher performance
level then the maker even intended.
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 05:09:07 GMT, "Charles Bendig"
I was talking about Category 5 network cable, which is 8 conductor and
terminates in RJ-45 ends, but actually, now that I think about it, the
same holds true for thin-net or thick-net coaxial. Thick-net wasn't
used for patch panels really but I'm sure there may have been some
stranded version of it too. As to house wiring, always wire with more
capacity than you need. Even better is to also put in some nice
conduit like you're talking about, to make upgrades easier. Wish I
had that in my older (1950s) house.
Nope. All thicknet was solid, because the original design required drilling
into the cable jacket and down into the center conductor so you could
a vampire tap, when you wanted to plug another machine into it. It needed
the rigidity of the outer shield and a solid center conductor.
Amazingly rediculous design it was, definitely came directly out of the head
of an electrical engineer with absolutely no experience running cable of any
kind in an office building.
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:55:45 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
I knew I've never seen solid used for patch panels. I know I've never
seen thicknet on patch panels. I didn't know that thicknet was only
solid, but I had never seen stranded. I remeber the vampire taps, and
it makes sense to just use solid for that.
Thickness depends on the material. A better (more resistant to conducting
electricity) material can be thinner.
If you're loading your battery cables like that, either your battery
tray is rusted through and the cables are the only thing keeping it
from hitting the street or you've got a busted motor mount and your
engine moving around the engine compartment every time you press the
throttle. In a vehicle that isn't broken, the cables are static other
than a slight vibration from the engine. This shouldn't be any problem
if the cable has a little slack in it.
Freshman materials science here. thinner strands generally speaking
can withstand a higher stress because they have less inclusions and other
defects than thicker strands. This is why alot of small strands is
generally able to carry a greater load than a piece of solid material.
Never mind the factors of homemade crimps and such.....
The only factor I can see of any issue would be one of corrosion since
welding cable is likely not designed to be exposed to water, road salt,
etc. But then again, the average battery cable isn't protected where
the connector is crimped on either, and copper is copper.
When Racing, you don't stop because you busted a motor mount. You stop
when something bad enough happens. I do everything from help people build
Demolition Derby Cars, to work on Off Road Trucks, to working on regular
race cars like the OP has.
In a Demolition Derby car things shift around. Mounts snap, cars get
considerably shorter. Heck a friend of mine got his car so bent he was
having to reach almost to the roof to steer. That right, the car bent
up in the center. When you help people build cars like those, you not
so much concerned with appearances, as you are what will last the
longest, and eliminating weak links.
When you do Off Road trucks, appearances come back in to mind a bit,
but so does making things so they last. Who wants to be on a trail at
midnight, 100 miles from the nearest parts store open 24 hours,? Not me,
And I do go trail ridding, and mudding after dark. Unless I can't limp it
home, I will coheres the vehicle to limp home, or atleast on to public
In a car like the OP has, the battery is probably inside the cabin in a
battery box. Which means the cable is passing thru the firewall.
Probably with out even a bulkhead connector. If that's so welding cable or
battery cable can chafe and fail.
Excuse my ignorance as to freshmen material science. I never went to
college, other then to pick up some girls, and hang with some friends
that went. What I know about Electrical I picked up from knowing engineers.
I won't argue about with you about strand loads, and such.
Practical example of that is wire rope. Even wire rope rated for 100,000
pounds has relatively thin strands. Even though the total thickness
of the woven strands is somewhere over an inch.
I have never seen any welding cables in cars that do not use a home
made crimp. So it is a issue to factor in.
Actually a lot of OEM side post cables have a molded rubber end at the
battery side. With a crimped on terminal at the other end crimped over
the sheathing. Often the sheathing will shrink away from the crimped
end. A common problem in ford vehicles (not just limited to their
When I see anything more then minor corrosion on a cable I replace
it. When I see split sheathing on a cable I also replace it. In the
past I have also made my own Battery Cables. Buying X-number of feet, of
X-gauge cable. When I did it, I always crimped my own ends, with a
crimping die. Then I would shrink wrap a sleeve over the end. Thus the
only exposed part was the terminal it's self.
remember, I bought the car used - haven't yet changed out everything.
Battery in a marine box bolted to the floor. Cables run through the
firewall in a huge grommet. + goes to the starter, - to one of the
<other non common uses of driving very broken vehicles snipped>
So if that's the case, then well you don't want regular battery cables
either. You certainly don't want the battery cables sold at parts stores
as the terminals will pull right off in those conditions. You want
something that is made well. And I would guess that the failures in
welding cable come from workmanship issues at the crimped on connectors.
Nothing to do with the wire itself as a regular battery cable made in
the same shoddy fashion wouldn't hold up either.
Again, I fail to see how there is a difference here. Regular battery cables
aren't exactly anything special. Now if you are comparing some nicely made
cables using the typical copper strands found in battery cable where the
crimps are made well and the ends sealed to something someone made
themselves out of welding cable and didn't dot the i's and cross the t's
then sure. But I don't see how an apples to apples comparison is going
to favor the less flexiable wire.
So? Of course It doesn't matter what cable is used unless it's protected
by a grommet or something it's just a matter of time before chafing
So that's really the root cause here, the crappy home-made crimps, not
Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.
I've seen the same things on other makes.
And I don't see why with the same attention to detail in workmanship why
a welding cable wouldn't last. The only thing I can think of would be the
insulation breaking down in a road salt sprayed environment. That's the
only thing the welding cable wouldn't have to stand up to. It has to
put up with the grease,oil,dirt,cold,hot,ect.... And salt spray doesn't
bother most insulation materials, but the wire itself and copper is copper.
My point exactly. I don't sign my posts with letters after my name, but
"BSEE, MSEE" are applicable.
The only thing that matters is how much CURRENT these cables can carry
without causing voltage loss. The fact that arc welders operate at
higher voltage doesn't matter, because they are designed to carry the
same CURRENT as automotive battery cables.
Niether were Compact Discs, but they work quite well there.
At only 12 volts of hold-off requirement, welding cable insulation will
CERTAINLY get the job done.
Hogwash. Welding cables when used as battery cables should be terminated
in high-quality soldered terminals. There's not going to be any breakage
if they're prepared correctly. The cables themselves are meant to be
dragged around the shop floor, flexed, tugged, stepped on, and driven
over. They are MUCH stronger than battery cables. Battery cables are
built to be CHEAP and adequate. Welding cables often provide a better
margin of excess performance in all categories than battery cables do.
Except offset the voltage drop. I suggest you apply the principles of EE
as you suggested. There are tables where you can look up the resistance
per unit length of various types of cables. Given that a starter can
draw 130+ amps through the cable, and that welding cables are often used
when batteries are re-located to the trunk in race cars necessitating
much longer cable runs, "over guaging" is a very useful thing to do.
As for the possible weaknesses of welding cable (insulation,
termination) this can all overcome by appropriate fabrication techniques
and by appropriate choice of insulation material in the cable.
I believe the wire used between the forklift batteries and the
charging power supplies were of the very flexible welding variety.
Also, the heavy duty electric motors that moved had that type of cable
slacked up (or else had that nylon flexitrack stuff with some kind of
wiring in it).
My understanding is that battery cables have few strands because it's
cheaper and does not need the ability to flex on a frequent basis. Cables
that have fine strands of wire, are used because they have the ability to
flex and without failing under constant flexing. If you're a welder, you
want the ability to articulate your hand and welding device at any angle and
not have to fight the cable to get there.
I can't understand why a stranded cable and a solid cable would have any
difference in carrying DC current.
No, the reason for this trick is that you need to keep in mind that all
have a certain amount of resistance per foot. I forget what it is for
With 1 cable you have, say, 1 ohm per 10 feet. With 2 cables you have 1 ohm
10 feet - but since the cables are in parallel the effect is the same as
resistors in parallel - you halve the total resistance. So, the 2 cables
1/2 ohm per 10 feet.
Of course, the negatory to this is that since a smaller cable will heat up
current volumes, and a hotter cable has a higher resistance, if you try
a great deal more current over the 2 wires, they will heat up so their
gets higher, and cancels out the parallel wiring effect.
No, what I'm saying is that if you graphed both of them you would find the
single solid core wire having a higher resistance curve as the current was
There's a point at which the pair of wires is going to have slightly lower
than a single wire, because they will not be as hot.
So, the statement "Also 2 cables can flow more current than 1 cable with
twice the cross sectional area." is technically true. What is missing is
the addition to this statement
"as long as the current flow is below the point at which the insulation
Most good electrical practices today though assume massive de-rating, to the
point at which the wires never have any measurable heat. There are
such as battery starter cables for example. If you disconnect a coil wire
just sit there cranking the starter on and on and on, you will feel the
starter wire heat up. In extreme examples (such as a stuck starter
where the starter jams in the on position, the cables will get hot enough to
actually catch fire, before the starter's internal windings melt.
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