Still Won't Start

You need to take a step back and go about this with a little more logic. A relay has two circuits. Primary and secondary. Remove the relay. In the relay socket you now see four terminals. Two will be 12 volts the other two will be ground and fuel pump circuit. Put the key in the run position and check to see if you have 12 volts at two of those terminals. Relays are very durable and just do not fail that often. A test lamp is better for these tests. Even tough you tried to get below the paint to get a ground, it's possible you never made it. You should look for a fastener that is attached to the body, like the screws that hold the switch to the car.

I get a reading on the one that is the "always on" connector when I put the key in the run position but don't crank the engine. But I do not get a reading from any of the other three. I am grounding to a solid ground (alternator housing). Do I have to have someone cranking the engine in order to get a reading from the other. It is supposedly a closed connection, so I would imagine it should be reading even without cranking. It is the wire that I had to replace the insulation on with electrical tape. The wire looked clean and not corroded.

I am having a heck of a time figuring out the schematics that I have and where the red wire originates. I have a good view of the relay, so I know the red wire is the other wire that should be hot, but it is not an 'always hot' wire, according to the schematics.

Thanks Thomas and thanks to Anthony for sending me some easier to read schematics of the relays. Take Care, Sharon

As I stated the other two; one is ground for the primary circuit, so 0 volts is expected the other is the secondary circuit which is the fuel pump circuit ( from relay to pump ) so again 0 volts.

The other "hot" terminal is "hot" when the key is in the run position.

Checked each connection to the relay. Yellow wire coming from the starter relay is the "always hot" wire. That reads fine on the multimeter when the ignition is turned to the on position. Red wire is the other incoming wire and that reads fine when the ignition is cranked. Went back to the inertia switch one last time. Had someone crank the engine and I checked that, nothing, dead. So, I headed back to the brand new relay that I bought. Put the multimeter probe into the socket for the outgoing wire to the inertia switch. Had someone crank the engine, with me grounding to the case of the alternator again, dead. No reading. Tried several times, moved the probe around so I was getting a good contact. Still dead.

I am taking the relay back to AutoZone. I will let you all know if that was it. But I gotta tell you, if it is, I am going to one ticked off lady.

Take Care, Sharon

Nope, put in another fuel pump relay, same thing. Juice coming in on both sides (one when ignition is on and one when engine is cranked). Absolutely a zilch reading going out. Me thinks that something is really squirrely. I kind of hate to hot wire from the battery directly to the pump, because it may be a grounding problem. And if I have a bad ground, I may blow a perfectly good pump. And a code reader won't help me because, as far as I know, the engine light has never gone on during this whole process, so there would be no codes to read?? I think.

I am not sure what I should do at this point. Maybe change out the contacts to the fuel relay to just regular clips and see if that helps. There is a tan goop in the contact housing that holds the relays. Can someone tell me what that is? It does not feel like dilectic grease to me, it feels sticky. Is it necessary?

Thanks and take care, Sharon

Take Care, Sharon

While there pick up a code reader if you don't already have one.

Hi Sharon, Can you confirm the wires haven't fallen off the pump or that one of the contacts broke due to rust etc. Have you got a couple text leads (very small wires) to run down to the fuel pump? Give it a momentary pulse to see if it is fact a running pump and not just a jammed pump due to dirt etc. in the fuel tank. It doesn't take much dirt to lock up the pump. Everything here looks so thorough you should have hit on the problem by now. Clip the leads on the pump first, them touch the battery away from the car and listen for thr pump to run. Good Luck BeeVee

Someone wrote that it may be the ground to the pump. The gas guage is reading fine, which I believe means the ground is ok. I think it may be the connector plugs within the relay socket. At least, that is what I am going to try next. I will try putting normal slip on connectors or go to a junk yard and get a socket. They seem nice and tight to me and in this weather you don't have to worry about rust of any kind. This seems to logically be my next step. If anyone sees something that I may be stupidly missing, I would definitely welcome the advice.

Take Care, Sharon

Thomas,

The 'always hot' wire on the fuel pump relay and the EEC relays do show juice all the time. So if I check the spark plugs for spark, does that tell me that the Hall effect pickup and the ignition module are ok?

Thanks for your help, take care, Sharon

As I stated, the ignition system can work and the ECM not see the PIP signal which is why the module is suspect. Checking for spark is a down and dirty way to at least know most of the ignition system works. In other words it rules out a broken timing chain, or a dead coil, or a totally inoperative ignition module or hall switch. With that information you now know to look else where. Like is the ECM getting a PIP signal? If it is, you now know to look else where, like is the ECM making ground on the primary side of the relay? If it is you now know to look else where like is the relay getting power on the secondary side? I don't want to sound rude, and I hope you are not taking it that way. But this is the thought process you need to employ in diagnosing your problem. You need to know what it is and how it works. If you do not, how do you know what is expected and what is not? How to decide what to test and what not to test? So to answer your question, it is a yes and no answer. If you have spark you have a good hall switch, and here is the yes and no, you have a good module in that it is opening and closing the coil ground circuit. The no is cloudy, because the pass-through circuit may be just fine but a poor connection between the module and ECM can prevent the ECM from seeing the signal. This is why I said you need to take a step back and go about this with a little more logic.

Thanks to BeeVee, I found out that there is juice to the pump, but now I have to figure out what is really going on here. I believe what I have done so far is telling me that the connectors inside the socket for the fuel pump relay are bad and here is why:

1) I connected a grounding wire from the fuel tank to the frame. 2) Tried to start the car, no start. 3) I left that ground on and built a jumper wire to hot wire the pump to the battery. Instead of hotwiring it directly to the pump, I decided that I would see if the wires going to the pump were okay. So, I took a small finishing nail and plugged it into the fuel pump relay socket that goes to the fuel pump. I clipped an alligator clip attached to a jumper wire to it and touched the alligator clip at the other end of the jumper wire to the battery (a little different than BeeVee suggested, but accomplishing the same circuit). In any event, the pump came on and ran. I didn't want to run it that way too long, but I did try it several times to make sure it kicked on each time, and it did. 4) If you remember, I already checked the lines going INTO that fuel pump relay and they are showing that they have juice going to them.

It just seems logical to me that if you have the incoming wires testing out fine, and a hotwired outgoing wire testing out fine, that it must be the fuel pump relay socket connectors. I am a little concerned about putting regular clip on connectors to it because I will have some bare connectors that could arc to each other.

Do any of you agree that I should change out those socket connectors next? If so, should I go to a junk yard to get a regular casing connector, or can I use bare metal slip on connectors? Or do you think that there is a possibility that I got TWO bad relays from AutoZone? Seems remote to me. Thanks for any help you can give me. Take Care, Sharon

I know this is going to sound like a stupid question Thomas, but which is the primary circuit? Is it the circuit that goes from the always on connection to the fuel pump? Or is it the one that is only on if I crank the engine over? Thanks for answering. I am learning a great deal as I go through this whole process.

Thanks and take care, Sharon

The primary circuit of a relay is always the circuit that makes the electro magnet, I.E. the coil side of the relay. It just happens on this relay it is the terminal that is always hot. Reread the post 11/9/03 @ 8:30 am. That goes into much more detail.

"Thomas Moats" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

I don`t remember, did you try just bypassing the relay and see if the pump will run at all. also when checking, remember the fuel pump relay is only energized about 10 seconds with the key turned on untill the eng starts. so any testing has to take that small window into accout. KB