Still Won't Start

Sharon wrote: > 1988 Mercury Grand Marquis - just drove it across countries and it worked

an open stator will keep the fuel pump from priming and result in a no spark condition,I went through this last month with my 86 it would run until the engine was hot then stall and restart or just stall. while looking under the hood I heard the fuel pump come on and it started when I cranked it. raising the hood a few minutes cooled the distributor and stator enough to drive another few minutes. luckily I was clost to home,$200 later it runs fine..

Sharon -

The TFI module is a real pain to remove - it is the gray plastic box with a mess of wires coming from it that is attached to the lower part of the distributor. You can see it in the lower middle of the "center" photo. The module has special screws that hold it onto the distributor and then has 5 or so prongs that plug in to a component inside the distributor. It's probably not a job for a novice. If you do decide to remove it - AutoZone and similar shops can test them.

Looking at the "fender" picture, the chrome tube with fittings dropping down just behind the distributor is the fuel line. The fitting is probably on the end of it and right behind the distributor is as likely a place as any. I don't actually see the valve in the photo but it's on the chrome lines. There might be two of them, one for each side of the engine. They will be near the front.

Mr. Moats is right, check for spark and fuel pressure. I am trying to help you do that without a pressure gauge or spark tester. I'm not sure if you will smell fuel with your test or not. I seem to remember trying that trick with the same result as you but it turned out the fuel supply was fine. You

*might* smell gasoline at the tailpipe after cranking, but I doubt it.

Try this, get a can of starting spray, flip open the air cleaner, and shoot a 3-4 second blast into the air tube to the engine. Close the cover, then try starting it. If it runs a bit, you have a fuel problem. No pop, cough, or sputter, assume no spark.

The local parts place will have tools like a spark tester and fuel pressure gauge. I don't have a clue about the cost. You really need a manual - the wiring diagram usually doesn't show you where stuff is or how to do things. The Chilton or Haynes from a parts store or Wally World would be better than nothing, I suppose. If you can look at them first, get the one with the most pictures. Check Ebay for a real shop manual, too.

My parents have an '88 GM, I have tinkered on it a bit for them but it's 200 miles away. I drive a Crown Vic but it's enough newer that it's lots different so I can't use it's book or look under the hood. I'm doing this from a foggy memory.

Paul

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1988 Mercury Grand Marquis - just drove it across countries and it worked and drove like a charm!

My original problem started when I went out one morning to start the car and it was dead. Got a new battery, since it was a used car and I had no idea what shape the original was in. Still couldn't get it to crank over at all (just clicking). If I trickle charged it enough to get it going and jiggled the wires near the relay boxes (with the ignition key out), I got a clicking noise down near the starter. As if one of the relays was trying to make contact even though the car was turned off. That is why I switched out the EEC and Fuel Pump relay. I think this may have been the original problem that drained both batteries. Could be there was a short in a relay that kept it running when the engine was turned off.

In any event, I returned the new battery and got another. Came home, connected up battery, new cables, and relays properly. It still will not start. It cranks over and all accessories now light up completely, but no starting. I have never heard the fuel pump run on my car, so it is hard to figure out if it is running or not. I checked every fuse in the fuse box, none blown. I know that there are fusible links that have something to do with the fuel system, but I have no idea where they are. I am not sure if there are circuit breakers involved either.

Suggestions and ideas would be greatly appreciated. I am going to the library to see if I can scrounge up a manual. I am on a VERY limited income, that is why I am driving an older car and trying to get it working myself. I am in this area, away from my mechanical friends, because my Mom is sick. I cannot afford a tow or a $62 hour mechanic. Thanks and take care, Sharon

Just a couple of thoughts. Have someone stand near the back of the car a listen for the fuel pump to energize when you turn the key to the on position (do not crank the engine). It should buzz for just a second. If no buzz, then a fuel pump in the tank may be the issue. Second, the TFI module is a bad design on those and earlier 5.0 cars. Vibration and heat cause them to fail at any given time without warning. I changed out a bunch on my '85

Checking fuel pressure with no tools is tricky, but checking for spark shouldn't be. All you really need is to find a spark plug (doesn't matter what kind, as long as it's in half-decent shape), pull the most easily accessible plug wire, stick that spare plug in there, put it on anything metallic (lie the intake manifold), and briefly crank the engine while watching for spark (you'll need an assistant).

I can see the failure-prone TFI attached to the distributor in the 'center' photo. It even seems to be the original one. If it is, it's a miracle that it made it intact from 1988 to 2003 - I had two cars with those, and their TFI's failed much sooner than that.

Here is a simple way of diagnosing a bit further if you see no spark: get a

12V test light (probably just a dollar or two in an auto store). Look at the connector on the top of ignition coil (that's the black thing a bit to the left of center foreground in your 'center' photo, which also has the high voltage wire running to the distributor). There are two wires going into it; red and green with some stripe. Turn the key on and check for 12V on the red wire (poke through the insulation with something sharp, if you can't get a contact otherwise). Chances are that there will be voltage there. If not, you may have a problem with the ignition switch. If you find that the red wire has 12V on it, move your test light to the green one, and have your assistant crank the engine. The light should be pulsing as the engine is being cranked. If it's steady on or (much less likely) there is no light at all, the TFI is probably bad. The reason that there should be blinking is that the TFI is supposed to briefly ground that wire before each firing - that's what completes the coil's primary circuit. The TFI usually fails 'open', meaning that you'll just get steady battery voltage at both ends of the coil when that happens.

Replacing the TFI is rather straighforward, but you will need a special socket wrench for its screws (about $5 in the auto store), because they are deeply recessed and there is very little clearance. First unplug the multi-pin connector (just pull hard on the wires and it should slide out), then take the screws out and carefully SLIDE the TFI DOWN, until it disengages from the distributor. Don't pull it away, because you will break the connector to the pickup inside the distributor. When re-installing a new one, apply thermal compound to the mating surface (comes with the unit). It looks from the photo that the coolant nipple or the sensor which is screwed into it may be obstructing one of the TFI screws. Hopefully not, but it may take freeing the distributor and turning it a bit to gain access. If so, make sure to carefully mark it's location by scratching a line on the body and the top of the engine, and return it to the same exact position, so that timing is not altered.

If this was not applicable to Sharon's no-start problem, at least I hope that it helps somebody with a car of that vintage. By the way, there was a class action suit a while ago, and I think that Ford will reimburse you for the cost of the TFI (and perhaps even the labor) if it had to be replaced.

Good luck,

IK

Paul, did this and it cranked right over. I am now trying to double check the wiring schematics for the relays. I have four mounted on my fender and I went by the AutoZone cross reference numbers to tell which one is the EEC and which one is the Fuel Pump. I have asked 'Spark' to send them to me because I could only find wiring diagrams for a 1986 in my library. The wires to the relays (colors, type) do not match. So, I will try to dig up diagrams before I go any further. If the ones I have are the same functioning, it could be a number of things including solenoid, starter relay, fusible link, TFI, or fuel pump, fuel filter. I changed the fuel filter just prior to leaving NY, so that was less than 3000 miles ago. Car drove fine in between. I doubt that would cause all of this.

The fact that when this first started, I could move the relay wires around and get a clicking noise at the starter WITHOUT the ignition key in and that the battery was drained, tells me that it has to be electrical more than mechanical. And that (I pray) it is in the engine somewhere, not the fuel pump in the tank. I can get a simple multimeter here at 'Wally World' for less than $10, if you think that would help.

Any help from anyone who might have a schematic or further suggestions would be appreciated. I am going to check wiring to the relays out first. Someone has let me borrow their car, which has helped out a great deal. I will also get a TFI installed I think, since it looks like the original, as mentioned. Even if it is not that, it may be a 'problem waiting to happen'. Thanks to everyone that has given suggestions.

Take Care, Sharon

Re: TFI, I'm not sure about fixing what isn't broken... The fact that it fired with the starting spray tells you that the spark system is OK. Something is preventing fuel from getting where it needs to be. Faulty wires or connectors are a good start.

Look closely at all of the wires in the harnesses near the relays. Since you were able to make noises wiggling them, there may be broken, frayed, or corroded connections down there. On my '84, a few of the engine harness wires actually lost their insulation. I assume it was due to faulty plastic, the stuff would crumble right off. I've never seen it on any other cars, tho. As the car got older, I also found some splices that had corroded bad enough to stop current flow. From what I remember, that was addressed by '88. tho.

I'd almost bet the actual problem is near the wiggle - click area.

PoD

This is just a shot in the dark, but on my 88 F-450 Super Duty truck, I had no fuel delivery at start up,. similiar to your problem. On my negative battery terminal, there was a smaller black ground wire hooked up in addition to the main heavy negative cable. When I wiggled the small black wire, the fuel pump came on and the truck started. The smaller black wire was probably for the fuel pump ground. In any event, check to see if you have a smaller black wire attached to your negative terminal and see if it makes a good connection.

Paul,

I am asking your to be patient with me and help me through this, if you possibly can. I went to the library today for wiring schematics, if I need them.

Pushed the button, multiple times, just in case. No change.

It is there, is there a way for me to test it?

I could not do the tests that you told me to do because I do not have a jumper available to me here and I could not find the relief valve you were talking about.

I did, however, do a standard test. I cranked the car multiple times (cranks over, but no starting) and pulled a spark plug. The smell and feel of oil was definitely on the plug, but there was not even an inkling of a fuel odor. I would assume there would be if the fuel is getting to the cylinder chambers.

I took some digital pics of my engine compartment, if you could tell me where this relief valve is, I would greatly appreciate it. Just tell me which pic and in what general location. Thanks for any help you can give me. By the way, I love this big boat of a car. When my husband was alive, he used to joke with me about my affinity to 'boats'. The pics:

I saw only one thing in the fender pic that might be one of the relief valves, but it is just behind that distributor cap cover. Not a good place.

Take Care, Sharon

I don't mean to sound dumb Thomas, but where is the inertia switch. Is that the switch in the trunk that cuts out in case of an accident? Thanks for helping. It is interesting to note that two years ago you were answering questions on this same problem. I saw it in the newsgroup archives today and I was thinking about how great it is that you are still here trying to help people. Thanks again. Sharon

Checked all wiring today near the relays, but everything is looking good. You said, "check where the wiggle was". Oddly enough, there were some bare wires on one of the other relays that I taped up with electrical tape in the very beginning. When I did that the clicking noise stopped. What is even odder is that it did not click near the relays (where I was wiggling the wires). The clicking noise was at the starter area, down below the engine. I thought that was very odd when it happened. Like some wire up near the relays was actually shorting something near the starter. But the oddest part of it was that the key wasn't even in the ignition. I sometimes wish we could go back to complete fuse systems instead of fusible links and self-resetting circuit breakers, etc.. I prefer changing a simple inline fuse!!

Still not running. Checked out relays, all is okay. I can't believe the fuel pump would go abruptly, with no warning. I have had electric pumps go before and usually you get a little sputtering beforehand. This car ran like a top right up until it died.

Take Care, Sharon

You are making your way thru the process of elimination - I'm sure you will find the problem. By the way, one of the first things I figured out when I got here was to listen to Thomas, he's usually right on the money.

Keep us posted.

PoD

I got a multi meter and checked out the power going to the inertia switch first. The meter checked out fine at the car battery, so I know it wasn't a bad battery sold with the meter. I could not get the meter probe into the small opening for the wire, so I actually had to puncture the wire insulation. I put the meter hot wire in the orange wire at the inertia switch. This is the incoming power from the relay switch. I grounded to the car fender, buried it past paint to get a good ground. Had someone crank the engine over. No reading what so ever. Tried it several times. That meant that power was not coming from the relay to the pump.

So, I figured my next step was to check out the relay power. Went to the relay and started to THOROUGHLY test the wires. I found one area of the red wire (part of the closed loop of the relay) that had a small amount of insulation cracked off. When I touched it with my fingernail, it literally fell apart. I stripped off all the bad insulation (wire was still good and not corroded) and wrapped the heck out of it with electrical tape. Tried to start it, no dice.

So, my next question to you is this. If that sparked or arced, could it have ruined the brand new relay? It is not part of the loop that goes to the inertia switch and pump. According to the wiring schematics, this is supposed to be an 'always hot' connection. Does that mean I can check for juice without someone cranking the engine? What would you suggest as my next step?

Thanks for all your help. Take Care, Sharon

Just tried one last step. The Yellow wire, coming into the fuel relay is supposed to be part of an 'always on' connection. It supposedly bypasses the 'start' process (according to the schematic), so I turned the key to the on position, put the positive lead of the multimeter into the yellow wire (that is what feeds it the juice for the operation of the fuel pump relay) and of course grounded it prior. I got a zilch reading. I tried this several times. Then went to the battery with the tester and it tested out fine. Went to the starter relay and it tested out fine. So, somewhere between there and that relay is something bad, I believe. Can someone correct me if I am way off base.

Thanks and take care, Sharon

Well, if you have the schematic, its just a process of elimination. Power goes from point a to point b. Somewhere between point a and point b your losing it. Start with where you have it and work to where you don't. I assume you checked all the fuses in your fuse box. This could also be a fusible link under the hood. Sometimes, a connector will get corroded and cause a bad contact. Sometimes a wire harness will get worn through by brushing against something hot or something sharp.

If you have the schematics, start with where the constant on power originates, then work your way forward until you find where it quits.

Bob