I've got the 3.8, so that is all I am interested in. Apparently, when
You haven't been reading carefully, it's been posted many times that the problem is not with the gasket, or even really with the composite upper plenum. The problem stems from the EGR tube that protrudes from the lower aluminum manifold up through the plastic upper plenum. The tube is heated by the exhaust gases going through it and it in turn either melts a hole in the upper plenum or simply warps the plastic bad enough that coolant starts to leak both internally or externally.
This is more of a problem with the 4.3 v-6 in the S-trucks. You see a bit of it on the 3800, but not as much.
No, it has nothing to do with a "better gasket material". They redesigned the lower intake manifold with a smaller diameter EGR tube sticking up through the upper plenum. Here is a comparison of the two:
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> month or two ago I got a GM recall notice that they want to inspect and replace
You would lose your bet. I do these recalls all the time, and there is no interest in inspecting for coolant leaks. They simply want the throttle body retaining nuts replaced with an updated nut that won't lose it's torque over time. And they have us install GM's form of Bar's leak.....which by the way....they have been installing in their engines for years right from the factory.
So, you are suggesting that the material of the intake is deforming?
Are you saying that GM did not change the gasket material?
For that reason alone, I think I will skip the recall procedure. I think Bar's Leak is a good product, if you need a temporary fix to a coolant leak. I would never dream of putting it into an otherwise-good cooling system.
No, I'm not "suggesting" anything, I'm telling you that the plastic upper plenum either distorts from the heat of the EGR tube, or it actually will melt a hole right through the plenum adjacent to the EGR tube.
Not on the 3800 engine. You may be confusing this intake problem with the 3100/3400 engine intake gasket problem. On those engines, yes, the intake gasket has been re-designed.
I don't think that you need to skip the recall procedure. Simply ask that they don't install the two pellets of sealer that are called for in the recall. The re-designed nuts are probably better at maintaining the torque at the throttle body.
There isn't anything wrong with these cooling system sealers. Contrary to popular usenet belief, they don't "clog" anything up. Obviously, they were never designed to fix something drastic like a head gasket leak, and I wouldn't recommend using this type of sealer to fix any leaks other then minor seepage...that's all it was really intended for. GM specifies that it must be used on their all aluminum Northstar engines, though I have noticed that lately they have dropped that requirement. I suspect they are doing a "field" test on whether its really necessary anymore with Dexcool.
Yes, that sounds right. I knew that they had re-done some gasket, but I did not remember whether it was on all of the engines. A friend of mine just had his Century done (1999, 3.1L) and he had to pay for it all. $$$
That's not the way that the GM shop here works. If they have a procedure, then they follow the procedure despite whatever special instruction the customer gives. In fact, that is exactly why I quit taking my car to that GM shop some years ago. On an unrelated matter, they insist upon applying fuel injector cleaner to the tank, even when there is no engine performance issue.
Yes, I just kind of hate to have my car being the field test subject. Of course, if they do use sealer against my wishes, then I will just flush the system and put in fresh Dex-Cool, but that costs me money.
And there is good reason to follow the procedures to the "t". Gm can get nasty if they discover you haven't followed their procedures...(you...meaning the dealership folk). I had a customer in the other day (one that insists on looking over your shoulder for every part of the repair) and he was a little leery of the sealer, so I offered to simply not put it in. Then all of a sudden he was worried about coolant leaks, so in they went.
He is a bit of nutcase though. Unfortunately, my service manager has saddled me with the responsibility of working on his vehicle whenever he comes in. We shall see....as I'm not really that excited about customers standing over my shoulder while I'm working on their vehicle. This customer has bought something like 40 new vehicles from our dealership, so they somehow believe that he is exempt from the normal rules within the shop area.
Try another dealership maybe? It's only three nuts, its hard to imagine how anyone could screw up installing them.
Absolutely. I've had responsibility for writing procedures for another industry, and once the procedure is cast in concrete, trying to alter the procedure can get very odd results.
I am surprised that a customer would be allowed in the shop area. Around here in California, a customer would never be permitted into the shop area except by special dispensation from the Pope.
He probably thinks it is part of his job.
That is because you are such a diplomat.
Yes, that is a good idea. I've had a bit of a grudge against the GM shop closest to me, but I could drive ten miles more and find another one.
I had written a business letter to the Service Manager at the GM dealership, and they did not even respond in any way, not even a phone call. My followup letter was ignored similarly. That is why they lost my service business.
Right, then you understand completely. I'm more willing to be flexible about such things...but our lead shop foreman is one of the most anal people I've ever met when it comes to GM and warranty issues. This is actually good, as we never have any problems with GM and our warranty practices. I have worked at dealerships where great liberties where taken in regards to warranty and there were some severe repercussions when GM found out. Like very nasty audits that involved hundreds of thousand of warranty repair dollars being denied to the dealership.
Well, we are in Canada, a much kinder and gentler nation and all that (grin). I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about it in Alberta, but we will often use the old "insurance regulations don't permit customers in the shop" line when faced with a customer that insists on watching everything.
I don't really mind a customer watching me work, but what usually happens is that (because I'm a bit of a pushover) I end up spending way too much time talking to them, and showing them this, that or the other thing on their vehicle. Many of them don't appear to realize that I'm paid on a flat rate basis and by spending time with them, I lose money.
Case in point: the customer who was over my shoulder.....I spent 45 minutes doing what should have been a 15 minute job. So instead of making.... let's say.....35 dollars an hour, I was reduced to 15 dollars an hour for that particular period of time. On the one hand, it's a great boost to the ego to have your service manager have great faith in your ability to perform the job right and be (as you say) diplomatic with the customer. On the other hand, it costs me money, and I learned long ago that food on the table for my family is far more important the a boost for the old ego.
I did jokingly mention to my boss after the ordeal was over that I would require 'straight time plus 50%' to work on that customers vehicle again. He might not think I'm serious, but I am. That ought to bring me back up to my normal productivity level.
We have customers that seem to jump from dealership to dealership around here. Often what one customer dislikes in a dealership just wont bother another one. And when ever one comes in bitching about another dealership....I take it with a grain of salt, as I'm sure there are an equal amount of other folks driving in to other dealerships making sure that everyone knows what a bunch of crooks we are over at our dealership. It's always that way.
Was this a dealership that you had spent a lot of time at? Did you do both warranty and off-warranty work at this dealership? Had you established any kind of relationship with any of the advisors or even the service manager? What was the concern about?
My relationship with a certain GM dealership (which shall remain nameless) began in late 1990. I purchased a new 1991 Buick from them. At first, when the car was new, they were doing all of the normal things to keep me as a happy customer. Then they started slipping up. One rear power window quit, and I diagnosed it (using the Helm manual) as a bad switch or connection somewhere around the driver's controls. The GM shop diagnosed it as a faulty motor, so they replaced it, and I paid. Then about one year later, the same symptoms showed on the same window. Again, I showed it to be something around the driver's controls, and I took it back to the same shop. As you might expect, they diagnosed it as a faulty motor. I stopped there and explained the history going back one year. They said: "Let me call you back." Then they called back two hours later to say that the car was finished, and no charge. Well, you and I both know what happened. That caused me to be suspicious of them. I know that any good GM technician might have a bad day and screw up on a diagnosis, but then don't refuse to admit the mistake.
On the same vehicle, the cam sensor broke, so they had to pull the whole front end of the engine. That took days, and the bill went to about 50% more than what any other GM shop in the area charges. When the car was ready, I paid the cashier. As I walked out to where the car was, I was going over the details. When I got to "fuel injector cleaner $15" I got nervous. I asked the Service Manager why they used $15 worth of fuel injector cleaner on it, and they said that they always do that on any engine with a performance problem. In my opinion, that was the wrong answer. If there had been anything wrong in the fuel system, then why did they have to pull the front of the engine? If they pulled the front of the engine, then why were they fooling with fuel injector cleaner? I posed that question to the Service Manager. He thought for a moment and then said "Well, the next time you bring the car in, point this out to us and we will refund $15." My reply was that I didn't think there would be a next time for service. That car never went back to that dealership for service. I wrote the Service Manager one letter to inquire, and then a followup letter. Both were ignored.
I have since purchased another Buick from the same place, but they have never seen it for any service work.
That was probably your first mistake. Are you saying that the power window quit "completely".....and your diagnosis led you to a bad switch/connection? And then they replaced the power window motor and it worked for one year before it quit again? It seems strange to me that even an intermittant problem would go away for a complete year before re-appearing.
Hmmm....I'd have to hear the other side of the story on that one. Depending on what kind of a customer they percieve you to be, they may have just wanted to finish up the work and be done with it. Where you able to ascertain what work they had actually done the second time around? And yeah..you are right....best just to fess up if you screw up. What has to be in place for that to happen is a reasonable manager.
Your second example does sound suspicious. Perhaps "they" broke something. While fuel injector cleaner won't hurt anything, they would have been smarter to simply install whatever they wanted in the fuel tank, and leave it off the bill. But then again, your question is valid.... was there really anything wrong with the cam sensor...
This is a real problem with big dealerships...or just dealerships in general. There is a real lack of communication between the customer and the tech working on the vehicle. Often the people up at the front counter tell outrageous lies in the belief that it will smooth the rough spots over. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Most customers would be happy to hear the truth...as long as they don't have to pay for it. By that I mean, if something got broken, as long as it was repaired without expense to them, they are usually ok with it as long as they know about it up front.
At our dealership, I actually think we give away too much. Someone just has to squawk a bit and they give everything away to them.
Some electrical problems are intermittent on an annual basis, and they tend to be thermal intermittent connections, especially in some place like the driver's door where a little rain could get in there.
Only part of the facts show up on the invoices.
No. If the customer is paying, then the invoice shows what they did and what parts were used. However, if they did it for no charge, then they don't have to say what they did or what parts were used. All I could tell for sure (after the second time) was that the hex Allen screw had been turned (the entry point to the door panel on that car). I had left it a certain way, and it was different after I got it back. So I knew that they had been into the door panel to do something, which is where I would have expected them to go in the first place, if you believe my original diagnosis.
Absolutely, I believe that there are a lot of good GM technicians out there, and anybody is entitled to a human error once in a while. But then the Service Manager needs to run interference. If he isn't going to do that, or if he isn't going to respond to customer inquiries in any way, then the customer simply takes his service business elsewhere.
I don't know for sure. The original symptoms pointed to something like that, so I was not shocked by the cam sensor diagnosis. Something like that is not the sort of thing that I would try to tangle with on my own, anyway.
The people at the front counter need to choose their words carefully sometimes, but then if it gets to outrageous lies, some shrewd customer is going to get pissed off and take their service business elsewhere.
However, here after the fact, I am relatively content with taking my service business elsewhere. This may sound strange, but I am fairly well content with purchasing my new autos at the same dealership as before. I know what kind of mistakes they make in the financial paperwork, so I know what to watch out for. Last time, they made a mistake of $500 in their favor, and I caught it right at the time of delivery. I know what kind of extended warranty scams they try to run. I take personal notes on all of that crap. I save the business cards of the GM people that I have to deal with. Then the following month, when there is some screwup, I march right back to the place and ask to see the correct person who did it. It's amazing how many times that person is no longer an employee of the dealership (and that tells me something else).
Oh, well.
Everybody is trying to make a buck these days. But I watch out for the ones who are trying to take all of my bucks in a hurry.
I have seen this occur twice, interestingly enough both times in 4.3 powered Blazers, after they topped off a Dexcool system with standard green ethylene glycol. The result was similar to what congealed, partially dried brown cottage cheese might look like. Both instances required repeated chemical flushing of the block/head water jackets and replacement of the entire remainder of the cooling system. Not a good day for them.
But this issue has been addressed in 98 by using a thinner pipe, right? Was this change good enough?
Then again, there's still some issue with the intake manifold leaking in later models for which there recently was a recall to replace a couple of bolts that attach the TB to the manifold. Are both issues related?
I guess only time will tell. I've seen upper's being replaced more then once because the lower intake hadn't been changed up to the new style, but I haven't seen any with the new style lower manifold come back yet.
Believe it or not, it's always been an issue with these engines. There has always been a tendency for them to leak from the throttle body to upper plenum connection. I usually ignore more seepage. Gm's latest recall is a change in the style of nut that is used to retain the throttle body to the upper plenum. None of the vehicles that I've performed this recall to.. have been leaking coolant at said joint.
Ian, if you don't mind me asking, are you in Edmonton? My sister lives there and needs a good mechanic. She owns a Saturn, so it's a GM. Nothing _wrong_ with the car, but if you're in Edmonton I'd definitely tell her to consider getting her car serviced at the dealership you work at.
I thought it was something specific with the 2nd series...
Doesn't the end of this paragraph contradict its beginning or something was lost when your thoughts were going to your fingers? In any way, where did any of those recalled cars leak?
Sorry, that's what I was referring to. The GENII series of engines. There have been modifications along the way.
Again, sorry. After looking at the paragraph, I see your point. Let me clarify..... starting back with the GENII when it first came out.......since that time, coolant leakage at the throttle body to upper plenum gasket has always been a problem 'as the vehicle gets some miles on it'. I always put it down to a warped manifold. Which was probably true when these engines had the 'old' style lower intake manifold. This latest recall is for 2003 and up I believe, possibly 2002 vehicles. As such, none of these vehicles that I've seen (late model ones) have been leaking from the throttle body area, but I suspect that GM is attempting to nip the problem in the bud if it can. Still see lots of older 3800's leaking from the throttle body gasket, but there is no recall for them. What is recommended is to install the updated nuts whenever performing repair work to the upper plenum.
Better than dealer prices. I couldn't find a place around here that stocked DEX, so i had to go to the dealer. $16.00 a gallon, and they mentioned that prices are going up.
Fortunately, a few NAPAs have popped up nearby, and they stock DEX-COOL equivalents.
You're going to get tons of opinions either way. I have DEX-COOL running in my car ('02 Grand AM, 2.2L Ecotec) and have been checking it religiously. So far, no gumming, no gunk, and the tank is squeaky clean. I do keep an eye on the level, and have a jug of Dex Cool lying around in case I ever need to top it off (which i did once, becuase the dealer and I apparently have a different idea of what "full cold" means).
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