NUMMI Story on "This American Life"

Are you sure about that? I keep reading how much money Opel has been losing...

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From
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: "GM is seeking 1.8 billion euros ($2.4 billion) in loans or loan guarantees from countries with Opel/Vauxhall plants towards the cost of a 3.7 billion euro restructuring to return the money-losing unit to profit in 2012.

"So far the UK has pledged 300 million euros. Spain and Poland are still considering GM's request.

"GM is seeking about 1 billion euros from Germany where Opel and half of GM's European workforce are based.

"The U.S. automaker said earlier this month it would provide 1.9 billion euros in equity and loans to Opel, tripling its funding and cutting its request for state aid in a bid to win over European governments.

"Opel plans to cut 8,300 jobs in factories across Europe, shutter a factory in Antwerp, Belgium and reduce production capacity by 20 percent."

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White
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As I have pointed out to you several times, if your goal is to buy the products with the most domestic content, then GM is who you would buy from.

Toyota also build vehicles and components in China, just like GM, only more so.

You are an uber-hypocrite - protecting a foreign manufacturer while trashing GM by complaining that they are buying some components from China. If you want to be a free-trade advocate and say we should turn the US car industry over to the Japanese because they are better at it, then I can understand that point. What I can't understand is this idea that you think it is OK to turn the US car industry over to Toyota while blasting GM for doing exactly the same sorts of things that Toyota does.

You should read about how Toyota treats "guest workers" or how they exploit labor in places like Thailand. Toyota has a long history of oppressing workers outside of the "home" factories. Toyota loves to show you pictures of the shiny main assembly palnts in US and Japan. They never show you pictures of the sweat shops they operate through subsiduaries. GM just wants to get on the Toyota bandwagon.

Name little shovel litte shovel...ha ha.....it makes no sense.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Depends on the car.

The Chevy Aveo is built in Korea. The Toyota Sienna is built in the US and has something like 85% US content.

If American-made is a major criteria, then you have to go by the particular model.

What percent of cars built in Japan by Toyota for the US are Chinese? How about cars built by Toyota in the US?

Reply to
dr_jeff

they're using chinese suppliers for the chinese market ed!!! gm is using chinese suppliers for the american market. and thus using taxpayer dollars to export jobs to china.

really ed, you need to grow some moral backbone, go get yourself a real job and stop trying to pollute the media with your twisted bullshit.

Reply to
jim beam

iow, you won't answer the simple question i asked...

Reply to
jim beam

don't point out facts to ed - they get in his way.

Reply to
jim beam

what part of north korea being a belligerent that sells missile parts to other despots and south korea being an ally are you missing?

Reply to
jim beam

yes, i'm sure about that.

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ed, you know about politics, right? [of course you do!] you know about international accounting consolidations, right? you know that you can expense in one country and profit in another don't you ed? and why the FUCK would you borrow money on the commercial markets when you can crank the government cash lever and get money given to you with just a few well orchestrated press releases and astroturf campaigns?

Reply to
jim beam

And you don't think Toyota is also using Chinese suppliers for the cars they build in America and for the cars they build in Japan and export to America? I think you would have a hard time proving that.

I still don't understand how you can grumble about GM using Asian suppliers (including Chinese suppliers) while at the same time shilling for Toyota when the facts are that GM still uses a higher percentage of domestic parts, employs more US citizens than Toyota, and contributes much more to the US economy than Toyota. I can understand and even agree with your complaints about out sourcing to China. I just can't seem the logic of trashing GM for this and then excusing Toyota for doing the same thing.

I have complained multiple times about how the US government bailed out GM. But the facts are that the Japanese government also provided emergency financing to Toyota and the US government has been indirectly subsidizing Toyota through programs like cash for clunkers and hybrid car tax rebates. You need to be fair in your criticism of GM and recognize that they are not doing things much differently than Toyota.

You need to examine the illogic of your postions.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Thanks for the info, but facts don't matter when Hunter makes statements.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

You slow? First sentence in my reply. Or just make up some numbers of your own. You're pretty good at making stuff up.

Reply to
Bob Cooper

"dr_jeff" wrote in message news:moidnc8hSouqOC3WnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com...

The Aveo has 1% domestic content and while the current Sienna includes something like 85% doemstic content, the Toyota competitor closest to the Aveo, the Yaris, has 0% doemstic content.

True. I have posted links to the Government data that has car by car listings (see

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).While it is true the Sienna (and Tundra, and several other Toyota models) have very high domestic content, Toyota imports at least 14 vehicles (Toyota, Lexus, Scion models) that have 0% domestic content. No major automotive manufacturer sells a vehicle in the US with more than 90% domestic content (domestic = US plus Canada, but not Mexico...seems strange since NAFTA sort of created a quasi-domestic market of US / Canada / Mexico). According to an article at
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GM's overall domestic content is estimated to be 69%. Toyota is at 44%. I have no idea what percentage of the 31% of GM content that is non-domestic comes from China, or Mexico, or Australia, or Brazil, or Europe. I know GM builds some engines in China that are installed in US cars. As far as I know Toyota doesn't do this yet, but they have set up engine factories in China. So I don't see the difference. Both companies operate in China. Both companies ship parts into and out of China. I can't see how GM is bad for doing this and Toyota isn't as well. I don't at all like the way things are going with respect to China. However, I can't see how you can separate how China is operating now from how the Japanese and then the Koreans have run their car industries over the last 60 years. You might find it interesting to look at how the Europeans felt about GM and Ford in the early parts of the last century. Or you might want to investigate how the Japanese government treated Ford and GM operations in Japan over the years. There is no level playing field when you are dealing with the Japanese or the Koreans, or the Chinese, or the French, or the.......

I have no idea. Could you answer that question for GM? I am sure both GM and Toyota buy parts in China. I have no idea of the percentage. Denso (the captive Toyota parts supplier) has opened many component factories in China (and Thailand, and Indonesia, and India). Do you think Toyota doesn't take advantage of low cost suppliers? Do you think Toyota has some inherent bias against operating in China? If so, then why set up factories in China?

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

it's not as easy as astroturfing ed - i'll give you that!

i'm not shilling for anyone ed - don't accuse me of your despicable behavior.

"facts" - you mean that "weighted" but mysteriously sourceless bullshit you quoted earlier? yeah, those are "facts"!

really? the "old" gm only had 30k-odd americans on salary. all the other numbers in their accounts were consolidations of various hourly workers from various locations. but you have a access to more political data than i.

"contributes"???????????? so sucking off the taxpayer's teat to the tune of >$30 billion is "contributing"???

but toyota are /not/ doing the same thing ed - they're not using american taxpayer money to export jobs to china. and they're not ripping off the american consumer by selling them shit either.

are toyota exporting american jobs to china at the american taxpayer's expense?

whoops - you should pass this mistake back the review/editing committee ed...

Reply to
jim beam

As long as China is a communist dictatorship, which it is, the Chinese will always be poor, and it's got NOTHING to do with how much money they have.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

Toyota took advantage of the cash for clunkers program and the hybrid car rebates to sell cars in the US. Many of the cars have no domestic content (for instance, the Prius). Various US state and local government have provided tax and other incentives (including cash) to Toyota to attract manufacturing plants. Aren't these cases of Toyota using US taxpayer money? And while in many cases the US Toyota plants do generate new jobs, aren't they counter-balanced by jobs loses at GM plants? How many US jobs were lost becasue Toyota decided to shut down the NUMMI plant? If Toyota was so interested in creating US jobs, wouldn' they have kept that plant going?

And you know this how? It is illogical to think that Toyota and Denso have set up factories and joint ventures all over China and that they aren't taking advantage of these low cost suppliers.

I am not trying to defend the Chinese. Most of the negative things you say about the Chinese government (as opposed to individual workers) is true. I'd rather we not do buisness with the Chinese. I am just pointing out that you are a huge hyporite for attacking GM and ignoring Toyota when it is certain that they are doing exactly the same sorts of things when it comes to purchasing componets form the lowest cost suppliers, including Chinese suppliers. Even if Toyota doesn't import a single componet from China (which is not possible) then they are still working with the Chinese and creating jobs in China and building induistries in China that will eventually compete with the rest of the world. Damn the difference between what GM is doing in China and what Toyota is doing in China. Your attempts to igonore this tells me you don't really care about GM sourcing parts in China, it is just an issue you have siezed on in an effort to tar GM. You hate GM and are just looking for reason to spread the hate. Just stop using attacks on me as a medium for spreading your hate of GM. If you want to attack GM, open a separate thread in the GM group and quit trying to use a defense of Toyota as a means of launching your attacks on GM. Defend Toyota based on the facts related to Toytoa. Don't defend Toyota by saying I hate GM, so Toyota must be good. ......

Granted. For certain you make no sense to me. It makes no sense that you defend Toyota while attacking GM over the doemstic content issue. No matter how your want to look at things, GM still has a much higher average domestic content than Toyota and employs far more American workers than Toyota. My assumption is that you were in some way injured by GM and that your hate of GM is preventing you from seeing the illogic of your attacks.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

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GM's overall domestic content is estimated to be 69%. Toyota is at> 44%. I have no idea what percentage of the 31% of GM content that is> non-domestic comes from China, or Mexico, or Australia, or Brazil, or> Europe. I know GM builds some engines in China that are installed in> US cars. As far as I know Toyota doesn't do this yet, but they have> set up engine factories in China. So I don't see the difference. Both> companies operate in China. Both companies ship parts into and out of> China. I can't see how GM is bad for doing this and Toyota isn't as> well. I don't at all like the way things are going with respect to> China. However, I can't see how you can separate how China is> operating now from how the Japanese and then the Koreans have run> their car industries over the last 60 years. You might find it> interesting to look at how the Europeans felt about GM and Ford in the> early parts of the last century. Or you might want to investigate how> the Japanese government treated Ford and GM operations in Japan over> the years. There is no level playing field when you are dealing with> the Japanese or the Koreans, or the Chinese, or the French, or> the.......

but you do about toyota? yeah, right.

and only one does so specifically for the american market and american taxpayer expense...

how odd - toyota buys up to 85% of componentry for it's american-made vehicles from AMERICAN SUPPLIERS. if they can do that and make a profit, why can't gm? it's not like gm don't make their european vehicles with european components and make a profit - and that's much higher cost environment than here.

er, so it can sell to the chinese market because china won't allow imports otherwise?

yeah, ed, the rider of the trojan horse.

Reply to
jim beam

Not sure how this would relate to the current subject, but don't forget the $8 billion that Jesse Jackson blackmailed out of Toyota in 2001.

Reply to
Bill Putney

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> GM's overall domestic content is estimated to be 69%. Toyota is at>> 44%. I have no idea what percentage of the 31% of GM content that is>> non-domestic comes from China, or Mexico, or Australia, or Brazil, or>> Europe. I know GM builds some engines in China that are installed in>> US cars. As far as I know Toyota doesn't do this yet, but they have>> set up engine factories in China. So I don't see the difference. Both>> companies operate in China. Both companies ship parts into and out of>> China. I can't see how GM is bad for doing this and Toyota isn't as>> well. I don't at all like the way things are going with respect to>> China. However, I can't see how you can separate how China is>> operating now from how the Japanese and then the Koreans have run>> their car industries over the last 60 years. You might find it>> interesting to look at how the Europeans felt about GM and Ford in the>> early parts of the last century. Or you might want to investigate how>> the Japanese government treated Ford and GM operations in Japan over>> the years. There is no level playing field when you are dealing with>> the Japanese or the Koreans, or the Chinese, or the French, or>> the.......

I give up. Expecting reasonable responses fromn thje insane is a waste of time.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

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>>

not wanting to get ripped off is "insane"? daring to point out the simple fact that taxpayers are supporting a company that is shipping their jobs overseas is "insane"?

au contraire my friend - the astroturfing ethicsless shill that expects to show up and bullshit all the people all the time is insane.

Reply to
jim beam

Waste of time, but have some fun if you like. Not often free punching bags make an appearance.

Reply to
Bob Cooper

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