torqueflite 727 problem, need help....please. Long, sorry.

You have a valve spool, possibly the TV valve, installed backward in the valve body, a missing/misapplied spring, or possibly a missing/misinstalled check ball. I remember one guy got a check ball in the wrong place years ago on a 727 and wound up with no direct at all. After disassembling the valve body, the only way I found it was comparing with the valve body pictorials in the manual. Once reassembled properly, pattern was normal.

Other, more mundane things would be:

2nd band adjusted too tight or servo's stuck. Governor's stuck at low speed. TV is installed backward (I've seen this more than once!) Manual linkage horridly maladjusted TV linkage (cable) holding valve in kickdown position (pretty common on power plant swaps like this.) Improperly assembled front clutch (jammed seal)

Bob, you worked as a phone guy for Bell Telephone- what the hell do you know about a torqueflite ? Stop posing as a Chrysler mechanic- you drive a 1978 Honda, for cripes sakes.

What a windbag ....

Those suggestions you put up above, are from some old transmission repair manual, no doubt. I wager you bought an old Chrysler repair book at a yard sale for $1, and are now dispensing your vast stores of written knowledge on Usenet.

Your answer to another person's "stalling" problem says it all- you asked him when the last time his filter/oil was changed- like that would make the car stall...

Well, you should put in new bands. Why on earth would you NOT replace bands during a rebuild?!?!?

It sounds to me like a valve body problem. I distrust shift kits in general, although TransGo does seem to know how to make one for a Mopar. What makes me double-suspicious here is that there are VERY few shift kits actually made for a Torqueflite witha lockup convertor, and using one from a non-lockup convertor will screw the works but good. Other possibilities include a mal-adjusted front band which is staying applied in 3rd gear and attempting to lock the transmission, or a front clutch seal that's blown out of its ring so that the front (direct or 3rd gear) clutch never applies.

And that's what killed it. Running a Torqueflite without a throttle cable is a guaranteed way to roast it. The cable not only sets shift POINTS, it also modulates clutch and band apply PRESSURE. With the cable disconnected, apply pressure will always be a minimum so the clutches and bands will slip at any throttle application above a fast idle.

IMO, you should drop the transmission and go through it all again, this time replacing the bands as should have been done the first time.

But if you want to try to troubleshoot in-car:

1) Get a valve body from a junked vehicle with a lockup 727. Toss away the one with the "shift kit" and try an un-adulterated one. 2) while the valve body is out, follow the service manual procedure for testing the clutch and band servos with low-pressure compressed air. This will tell you if the direct (front) clutch seal is indeed blown or rolled out of its groove- this often happens on assembly and you gotta be REAL careful 3) Adjust the bands (particularly the front band) per service manual instructions

The last sentence gives the impression that the shift linkage might be part of the problem. I would crawl under the vehicle, disconnect the shift linkage from the transmission lever and have an assistant run the shifter through each gear position while you check the relative position of the transmission lever to the selected gear. If misadjusted/poorly designed shift linkage places the transmission lever between two gear detents, it will cause any number of problems. Also check that the transmission shift lever detents are firm and that there is no slop in the lever movement. Being in between gears could also account for the "bogging" feeling.

If the linkage adjustment checks out OK, you need to do some real troubleshooting by checking the pressures at the various test ports. As previously stated, leaving out the large (11/32") check ball in the valve body will prevent the 2-3 upshift. If the valve body needs to be removed it would be wise to perform an air test of the installed components as is outlined in the FSM; this should be performed on any newly assembled unit but is seldom done.

.

Made some headway today. As of tonight 3rd has come on. there was a check ball that the shift kit said leave out that the mopar manual said leave (the 11/32 one), this was applied and 3rd is now present, though at a high shift point. the shift kit is a fairbanks transaction kit which it lists works on the lock up model as well. New transtar lock up converter. The reason for no new bands was the man helping me has done transmissions only for dodge dealer for years and he thought thier condition deemed them fine to keep (maybe because of minimal pressure from no tv cable?). The shifter linkage is connected and adjusted properly. I now know that the tv cable is mandatory, just didnt back then, and blamed it on the junkyard unit. The bog feel I mentioned is now gone with the check ball in place. The 1-2 shift is better timed now at about 1500, but still want it a bit higher. Goes to first everytime now from stop. 3rd comes at about

3200 which is way too high for me. Then the 3-2 shift comes too early, maybe 10 mph below vehichle speed from the 2-3 shift. I'm going to try adjusting the tv cable a bit more tonight and see if the shift points get better. Thanks for all the solutions thus far and please keep them coming. I'm always open to more answers.

It seems that Steve's, Kunkel's and my diagnoses are convergent on several points, but two things seem to stick out here...the biggest being an improper "shift kit." A call to a friend who owns a very reputable auto trans shop and does a lot of restoration work on older units agrees with Steve...if you put ANY pre-lockup "shift kit" in a lockup valve body, you're screwed. Take the shift kit out and go back to stock and see what happens.

This same set of symptoms will also occur if the kickdown (2nd) band is adjusted way too tight, or if the servo is sticking. If this is the case, prepare to tear it all down again, because that old, used band you reused (for reasons I cannot fathom) is now probably toast. A "bogged" 1-2 will occur when the front clutch piston is jammed due to a jammed seal, too, and will also cause failure to go to direct.

Who did this rebuild??

:::taking a bow for correct diagnosis:::

That would give the opposite condition...minimal pressure from a maladjusted/backward installed TV would yield low control pressure, which would burn up the kickdown band in no time.

Dump the shift kit. Never heard of a "Fairbanks" shift kit for any Torqueflite. Go back stock, and pay SPECIAL attention to placement of those check balls.

I've rebuild two years ago. How many have you done?

Start of paranoid delusional "projection" rant:

End of paranoid delusional "projection" rant.

What you've just admitted is how you do things, Noodles. Projection like this is how many schizophrenics/psychotics/paranoid delusionals try to impress people that they are sane...and you do it all the time.

By the way...I get a nice, fat pension and savings plan dividend check every month. You get what....SSI?

Fairbanks is an old and well-respected name in performance transmissions and parts, they are now in league with Superior and their Transaction® shift kits are basically the same as the TransGo and B&M Transpak®. A properly installed shift kit is an enhancement to the transmission so I would disagree on removing it.

Superior and especially B&M, as well as TransGo I know. Fairbanks must not be marketed well in this area, as I've never come across them out here. B&M, which got its start out here with performance kits for cast iron HydraMatics in the '50s, ran the whole show until ATP went nationwide with their excellent TransGo® kits.

The problem here is that he made a change to the valving, got everything together and all hell broke loose. To do any troubleshooting, I'd think it'd be wise to go back to the stock valve body configuration, then look at control pressure and then what the pattern's doing. Already, according to the OP, one of the check balls was deleted, which I diagnosed right off. The shift kit may, or may

*not* be causitive here, so removing it and going to stock will allow diagnosis of the front clutch action, as well as the kickdown band.

A "late" shift to direct would seem to eliminate the kickdown band being maladjusted extremely tight, but it doesn't clear the servo being either stuck mechnically or hydrualically. It's possible, with a misapplied check ball, to have the band servo apply and then have no exhaust passage, thus giving the situation that Steve alludes to of the box trying to lock itself up. However, the OP says he now gets direct, but very late, so I'm thinking that the servo is mechanically OK, but MAY be hydraulically held operated. Thus, going back to the original valve body configuration may (or may not) see if that problem is cleared, as well.

If the kickdown band servo isn't helped by going back to original, I'd take a very harsh look at a screwed up/jammed front clutch seal ring. This would also cause low control pressure, which would also cause a late and soft 2-3. It's also possible, with very low control pressure, that the 3500 RPM he's reporting before getting direct could be a lot of slippage, as well.

There's only one optimal position for the TV cable to be in...lever fully actuated at full throttle. Since you've done a transplant, it's possible that the throttle linkage geometry is screwed up now, which will give you a hosed up pattern and an improper coast-down 2-1. Like the old HydraMatics, the Torqueflite requires the TV linkage to track properly in order to program the TV to give the right shift points and firmness at the right power settings. If you're not getting enough cable draw action from idle to full throttle, you will get high shift points and high coast down downshifts, assuming you set the linkage properly for being fully actuated at full throttle. If you maladjust for lower points, you'll have no kickdown and sloppy shifts under power.

John,

This "desertbob" character is a poser who is posting from auto repair manuals- he doesn't have any hands on experience fixing cars. This is the same guy that disassembled an entire 318 motor, when all it needed was a new thersmostat. So of course, he knows nothing about Fairbanks. You are correct in that they make top-notch converters and trans parts.

You are correct- a shift kit for an auto trans will "firm up" the shifts, which causes a quick, abrupt shift- and LESS SLIPPAGE- shift kits will extend band and clutch pack life.

In 1985 I had a TH350 GM auto trans rebuilt, and put a B&M transpak shift kit in it, but retained the modulator for street part-throttle driving. (the most drastic kit mode specified to remove the modulator for very high upshift points for racing) That transmission is still in my Firebird to this date, has never caused any problems, and has been drag raced extensively at the track, and driven very hard on the street. Had it not been for the kit, the trans would be toast by now.

Synthetic trans fluid helped too, of course.

...just busted you with yet another sock puppet account... snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com that you opened today.

Add snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com to your kill filers.

"Trans kits" are unnecessary in 90% of applications...idiot.

POSER ALERT: This moron, Charlie Nudo of Drums, PA, claims to have a Pontiac Firebird 455 HO with a "tunnel ram" manifold. It probably doesn't run. Also, the Chevrolet THM350 does NOT fit the Pontiac block at all. B-O-P cars had their own THM375 made by the former Detroit Transmission Divison, NOT Chevrolet Division, with the B-O-P bell housing pattern.

Charlie Nudo...shown to be a liar again.

Charlie Nudo, why yet another new Google account?

Total lie. He had an old beat to shit pontiac years ago. Charlie is the biggest blowhard on Usenet always talking about his adventures when the truth is he just a overweight dumpster diver who is on SSI.

You take many pictures for your failed Ebay auctions, why not show them a recent picture of this great car?

Fairbanks kits are the same as Superior, they're in bed together.

B&M didn't actually make "kits" for the iron Hydro, they built a unit manual controlled Hydro called the Hydro-Stik with the famous logo of a robot holding a shift lever.

TransGo is independent of ATP and is marketed through many other vendors.

The "change in valving" had nothing to do with it.

The missing #3 ball was the cause for no 2-3 upshift (you weren't alone in suggesting that) and the backflow through the missing check ball partially applied the rear band which accounts for the "bogging" feeling. The remainder of the OP's current late shift timing issues are related to throttle pressure adjustment and not the shift kit. The late 2-3 upshift and the early forced kickdown are solely the result of too much throttle pressure for the throttle opening; a simple cable/linkage adjustment should solve that problem.

It isn't about "necessary", 99% of vehicle modifications aren't necessary but if they enhance performance/longevity and driving pleasure there is no reason not to make the mods. It's a matter of personal choice, and advising people to not use them or to remove existing mods is a singular view.

John,

This "desertbob" character is a poser who is posting from auto repair manuals- he doesn't have any hands on experience fixing cars.

Duly noted, but even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.