Re: R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

LOL. The top-poster makes an ass of himself yet again.

From the Chicago Tribune (4/2/06 Sect 12, p8) Truck Rebate Guide:

Pickups Ford F150 $2,500 - 3,500 Ford F series $2,500 GM Avalanche $4,000 GM Silverado $500 - 2,500 Toyota Tundra $1,500 Honda Ridgeline $1,000

Huge SUVs Ford Excursion ('05) $3,000 Ford Expedition $5,000 GM Suburban $5,000 GM Tahoe ('06) $5,000 GM Tahoe ('07) Financing Toyota Land Cruiser None Toyota Sequoia $2,000 Hummer H2 Financing

Large SUVs Ford Explorer $2,000 - 3,000 GM Trailblazer $1,000 (SS finance only) Toyota Highlander $600 (hybrid finance only) Toyota 4Runner $1,000 Honda Pilot None

Small SUVs Ford Escape $2,000 - 3,000 ($0 - 500 hybrid) Ford Freestyle $1,000 - 1,500 GM Equinox Financing Honda Element Financing Honda CRV None Toyota RAV4 None

Cash rebates always have an alternative financing option of uncertain value.

The Sunday Tribune alternates trucks and cars weekly on its Rebate Guide so I don't have the Car Guide this week. Generally GM and Ford cars have much higher rebates than Toyota and Honda.

Fully 25% of GM vehicles are sold to fleet buyers at prices below even what the dealers pay. The Japanese companies don't offer those discounts because they don't have tons of excess capacity. So, in the minds of a lot of those who buy them, better means it's real cheap and I don't have to drive it.

GM sells a lot of cars because they have to sell a lot or their unit price skyrockets due to their fixed costs. Like everyone else, GM aims for a price and volume that will maximize profit. In GM's case, the best they could do in 2005 was a $8.5B...oops, $10.5B loss. If their cars were really "better" they could charge enough to make a profit.

BTW, if GM had paid absolutely nothing for health care in 2005, they still would have lost over $5B.

And people are willing to pay enough that Honda and Toyota make a good profit.

But GM has to discount them so heavily that they are losing money on them. (Are any Japanese cars classified as "full size?")

But not so good that Ford doesn't have to give a $2,000 to $3,000 rebate on them.

31% fewer in March than a year ago.

Are there any Japanese competitors in this segment? With gas up to $3 again, I think GM and Ford are going to have this niche to themselves for as long as they want it.

Again, no Japanese competitors.

I thought Dodge had the best full size van.

Ford probably makes a profit on these, even with the $3,000 rebate. But with more serious competition form Japan and $3 gas, even that may change.

You don't go to many 5-star restaurants, do you Mikey?

Is the guy eating at the 5-star restaurant smarter than the guy eating at McDonalds? Well, on the average he is probably earning five to ten times as much so I would be inclined to say yes.

I believe that the Avalon is classified as a full size car.

I believe that the Toyota Sequoia and Nissan Armada are in the same segment as the Suburban and Expedition.

Not so, you obviously know little about how corporate fleets operate, if that is what you believe. Corporate fleets, generally, keep their vehicles longer than any other new vehicle buyer and average more mileage as well. Because of federal tax deprecation laws they run the vehicles, that are just one more tool used in their business, for five years or 300K WOF.

Fleet discounts are offered by all manufactures, domestic and import. It currently is around $600 per vehicle, if one buys at least five, for all manufactures hardly below cost. GM nor any other manufacture can sell directly to fleets or any other buyer. ALL sales are through the franchised dealers. ALL dealers can sell to fleets and they all are eligible to sell at the same discount. Besides what difference does it make who buys the vehicles?

Imports would love to capture more of the fleet business, but the only ones doing so in any great numbers are the Koreans. Courier car fleets who easily run their cars up to 100K annually, buy a lots of imports. They run Civics, Corollas, Neons, Cobolts, Focus', VWs and Hyundais etc. Courier fleets buy from many manufactures because not one, or even a combination of them, can provide the numbers of vehicles the courier companies need. Most every rental car company offers imports as well but rental car companies, unlike fleets, sell off the cars in a year or less.. Corporate fleets prefer Fords vehicles, by far, over any of the GM or import vehicles in any event.

No matter how you spin it more buyers still choose GM, Ford and Chrysler over any import. If you prefer to spend 20% to 30% more to buy an import you are free to do so, its your money

mike hunt

If you think the Japanese are the only ones offering vehicles that get good mileage, you have not looked at the EPA Fuel Economy Guide CAFE figures. If you think gas mileage alone is the determining factor as to what buyers buy your thinking is faulty. The Camry outsells the Corolla, which get the better gas mileage? Eight out of ten Camrys sold have only a 4cy engine. The Camry outsells the Ford Fusion, which 4 cy get the better fuel mileage? The Pruis gets better mileage than the Corolla, which sells better? Do you think a person that spends 50K or 70K to buy any vehicle cares about the price of gasoline? The only people that have a problem affording gas, at a price over $3, are they people that can only afford econoboxes. ;)

mike hunt

Sometimes it pays to spend a little more. For instance, my 1978 Toyota Hilux still runs great. It has the original motor and transmission and they haven't been rebuilt either. How many domestic vehicles that old can you say that about? If the domestic auto companies could come up with something as dependable as the 20R/22re, they'd quit making it to force people into buying more often. The Ford I-6 is an example.

Here's something else to chew on. One of my 4runners had the head gasket go out at 90,000 miles. It trashed the engine completely. They had a recall on the gaskets, but it was out warranty. What do you think GM would do in this case? I'll tell you what Toyota did, they replaced the engine for the grand total of $0.00. So now the 4runner is approaching

300,000 miles, I figure it's ok to spend a little more on Toyota.

It boils down to this: If you don't mind having to buy again a 175,000 miles and you want to keep Mexican workers employed while lining execs pocket, buy GM. And good luck with you ABS system that should have been recalled long ago. Oh, I almost forgot, don't let anyone sidewipe you in your truck either because you'll see alot more flames than this post.

I live in 5-star restaurants, but I don't order burgers. That was not the question I asked. In answer to your question, he may be smarter but he is hardly a smarter BUYER if he goes to a 5-star restaurant just to buy a burger. ;)

mike hunt

I have one, a 1971 Pinto that I bought in 1970 for around $1885. It currently has nearly 300K on the clock. Looks and runs great. The drive train is all original, except I had to replace the clutch at 210K. I wish the 75 Celica, that cost me around 5K, had held up as well. ;)

Mike Hunt

GM would have said tough luck on you, and Mike Hunt would agree with them.

John

Hello, That reminds me of the problem that I had with a 1986 mini-pickup (Dodge RAM-50) that I purchased "new" from a Chrysler dealership. It had an auto. transmission. The carbuator was replaced three different times (for free) while it was under warranty. It was obvious that it was a factory defect. After the warranty ran out, the service manager refused to replace the carbuator for free. The service manager knew that it was a factory defect but refused to refused to replace the carbuator for free. It was the last vehicle that I ever purchased from an American car company. I was not shocked when Chrysler was taken over by Mercedes. I certainly hope that they are now treating customers much better at the local Chrysler dealership. Jason

Mike, You may want to check the resale value of the Lexus compared to your cars. You will find that the Lexus has a much better resale value. The reason is simple: most everyone in America knows that Lexus is far superior to cars made by American companies. If you want to convert the figures to percentages--feel free to do so. Jason

Also--the guy might be attempting to impress a customer (eg real estate salesman) by taking the customer to a 5-star restaurant.

I have news for you Chrysler does not sell cars with a carburetors, like they did that long ago . Why would you judge the vehicles, of any manufacturer, on the market today with what they sold twenty years ago?

By the way that truck you owned, and the carbonator, were Japanese. If you are avoiding a brand because of the one you owned, you are avoiding the wrong brand. it should be the Japanese manufacture of the RAM-50 ;)

mike hunt

Back when all manufactures began experiencing head gasket failures Toyota was NOT repairing ANY engine with a bad head gasket that was our of warranty. It was not until after Fords out of court settlement with the gasket manufactures over the problems that developed with the government ban on asbestos, that Toyota and some other manufactues started to make repairs that were 80% paid for by the gasket manufactures. Up until then the gasket manufactures were blaming owner neglect. Since the gasket failures were not catastrophic but rather a slow deterioration, a leaking head gasket should have been detected with normal maintenance long before it leaked enough to damage the engine. So you really should be thanking Ford ;)

mike hunt

This is one of my hot buttons. I don't disagree with your claim that your Toyota has served you well, but the fact is that an equal number of domestic cars are still on the road at ages like yours and have served equally as well. Toyota has no better of a record of nearly 30 year old cars on the road than GM or Ford, or anyone else. It's not a matter of the domestics learning to build a car like your 78 Toyota.

What do you mean when you say they had a recall but it was out of warranty. Recalls and warranties are two different things.

Having said that, my one and only real beef with GM is precisely what you're getting at there. The gasket issue is a prime example of something that GM should have stood behind the way that Toyota stood behind your 4Runner. Hats off to Toyota for that.

Well - you'll be a lot worse off getting in even a minor accident in your Toyota. Ask a body man about working on Toyotas and Hondas sometime. They love them. And not because they're so easy to fix...

25% on a $3,500 worth of crash parts is better than 25% on $2,000 worth One thing import buyers forget to take into consideration are the very high prices of import parts. Insurance companies KNOW the difference. That is one of the main reasons they get so little of the fleet business, no matter how hard the try. Higher insurance rates and higher part prices

mike hunt

You're comparison is flawed. Toyotas don't cost 10 times as much. If GM's and Ford's cost $1 for their feces invested burgers, then Toyota are $1.05 for their pure USDA choice ground beef. So Toyota buyers are smarter! That explains why you don't own them.

I will thank Ford. When I need a new work truck, it'll be another F-150. That's the one domestic I'll buy again. If only I could get one with an I-6 5 speed.