I think you will find that most users of this group (alt.coffee)ignore
trolls. They tend to play in the sandbox for awhile but eventually
return to their shallow end of the gene pool.
Calgary, Alberta, CANADA
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:06:55 -0700, Bob Ross who thought that every major
problem could be solved just with potatoes, wrote:
It's better to pay no attention to them, but I do tend to reply every so
It's worse in groups like Alt.Hackers.Malicious and the 2600 groups and
flame wars are not uncommon.
A good flame war can be fun though...
My poor ol' 91 Civic's stickshift has long been prone to squeakiness.
It recently started rattling, too. Too much play. So under the car I
go. One bolt, two bushings to be replaced. From the looks of what was
left of the old bushings, I got my money's worth.
Emissions troubleshooting still underway. You can ask me anything
about the evaporative system now, though, and I bet I can answer
One other important thing: Malia and Sasha Obama's new rescue dog,
should it be named "Frank" or "Moose"? Those are the choices with
which they have come up so far. (Have the little girls planned for the
possibility that said pooch may be a boy?)
Doin' the old "topic change" tactic, huh? I'll bite.
1) Shifter bushings buzz when worn, not rattle. In my experience, anyway.
2) Who needs to troubleshoot EVAP on the stone-age systems you and I have
on our '91s? Even if they screw up, you'd never know. For all I know, my
317,000 mile-old system is totally inop at this point. (Two months left
till smog check with the new cat!)
3) Moose. It's ironic (li'l dog, big name).
It seems the outermost bushing (part #5 on the bkhondaparts.com
drawing) disintegrated. The innermost one (with four o-rings) on my
Civic is not a pretty site: o-rings beat up, metal all rusted. The
play was enormous. At certain speeds, the stick rattled. Anyway, I am
pleased it is such an easy fix.
Ha ya well I have been studying your smog numbers (at your site) and
am resigned to the fact that I have not kept up my car the way you
have yours. No surprise, eh? :-)
ISTM if the evap system's purge cut-out solenoid valve failed, then it
could be a bona fide vacuum leak. At least, this was one area I was
checking. Or if the two way valve (between fuel tank and charcoal
canister) failed. Or if a person filled their charcoal canister with
gas due to parking downhill or numerous overfills of the tank (so
several sites say).
I doubt it. Bet it passes fine.
Mrs. Obama has veto'd the daughters and said it is not going to be
FWIW, a problem that I have had with really old evap systems is cracked
hoses. My old Volvo failed smog two years in a row because a couple of hoses
on top of the fuel tank had cracked. The first one was not bad to get to but
the second one was no fun at all. As far as I know, there are no tests to
determine whether the charcoal is still active, though. They just verified
the tank would hold pressure.
I bet just finding the cause of the smog test failure was no fun
Where I am, my 91 Civic's evap system is not tested per se. I just get
idle and high speed CO and HC readings, and these are the whole test.
I did get under near the fuel tank yesterday looking for the two-way
valve and the vent hoses; but they passed one test so I stopped short
of actually putting my hands on the two-way valve and its hoses. The
evap system has a few hoses that one way or another route back to the
throttle body (as you know), hence I went looking for vacuum leaks in
various evap system hoses/parts. I do not think I have seen a claim
that the charcoal canister will ever need replacement, short of
messing up, overfilling the fuel tank, and filling the thing with
My under-hood vac hoses seem intact. I have hand vacuum pumped nearly
all of them at this point, as well as testing the throttle body and
associated valves/regulators per the shop manual. Everything's
passing. I am pretty sure I did find a bona fide leak at the TB
gasket. I had been hearing a whistling; used my trusty 3/8" tubing as
a stethoscope (great tool!) narrowed down the source; and finally
determined it was at the gasket. Threw some of that amazing gasket
maker "Hondabond" in there (I am a bit rushed lately) and it seems to
have sealed it nicely. No more noise.
Right now my theory is that vac leaks at the TB gasket caused my Honda
to run rich for some time, destroying my O2 sensor and cat. I am
trying to test the O2 sensor (car warmed up and so in closed loop) and
so far, its readings do not seem right. No real oscillation around
0.45 volts. Car still runs great, with 37-42 mpg, and also including
at idle, so it is a little baffling. All I can imagine is that I do so
little idling that I would not catch only a small reduction in mpg due
to idle being too rich.
I am not ruling out the ECT sensor just yet, either, per an earlier
thread. Nor am I ruling out worn rings <taps play>.
Not as bad as I initially thought. I ripped the valve stem off a bicycle
tube and taped it in the end of a short hose. There was an easy place to
access the vent tube in the filler neck (it was a station wagon) so I
connected the hose there and gave a bicycle pump a few strokes. I could feel
the pressure bleedig off and I could hear the hiss, so I had somebody pump
while I dived. But yes, it was pretty low brow :-)
Have you been able to get a scope on it? The one time I did that (with a
Taurus that was surging) I could see the mixture hunt and could see the
oscillations for a moment before the voltage momentarily stuck high (rich).
Turned out the TBI was dripping and breaking the closed loop. Anyway, being
able to see that it was trying to operate closed loop and seeing how it fell
out of loop helped a lot. But if the O2 sensor voltage is just hanging at
.45 I really fear for the sensor.
I only have a multimeter. It has the alleged acceptable input
impedance for the O2 sensor test of > Megohms. After warmup, the
sensor is hanging way high at around 0.8V. I swapped in my older
sensor (original one, 154k miles, 13 years), and it hung high at
around 0.6V. Very few crossings over 0.45 inside a minute. When I give
the car gas, the reading does what it is supposed to (V rises), then
when letting fully off the throttle, V falls, as it is supposed to. So
the sensor still seems somewhat operational. Then again, I am not sure
the multimeter can capture rapid crossings. On the third hand, just
the two sensors having such different readings under the same
conditions makes me suspicious.
Both sensors get a sooty buildup near the threads after just a few
weeks, as does the tailpipe at its end, which is consistent with rich
running. (From the emissions test, there is really no doubt the engine
is running rich at idle.) So it is hard to say whether the rich
running was a result of the faulty O2 sensor; or the rich running was
due to something else and killed my O2 sensor. I am on my second tank
of gas with a bottle of Chevron Techron added. I swapped the injectors
with a junkyard set from a car with much lower mileage. Attempted to
clean the injectors (o-rings off) with carb cleaner first, though I
doubt this is a very thorough method.
For the record, both O2 sensors are Denso (OEM manufactured). A new
Denso one arrives within about a week.
I figure I will try at least two more tanks of Chevron Techron; a
compression test; maybe a completely new ECT (I have a lower mileage
shiny looking one in the car now); trying a (free) emissions re-test
after every major adjustment before I give up. Which I hate to do. Got
that "mission" mentality at this point. I am learning a helluva lot
very quickly though, so this exercise has value.
Fortunately for my wallet, and unfortunately for my automotive
education, I sold my beloved 91 Civic LX yesterday for a little less
than KBB "good condition" price, to a family who lives in the next
town over where emissions testing is not required and so did said they
did not care.
I have had my Civic on the market for a few weeks now. For the
archives, one owner older cars maintained decently sell quickly.
I am a little bummed, because I did not get to solve the problem. I
was all set designing a special O2 sensor test harness and testing
engine compression, too. OTOH, it was taking a lot of time. It has
made me contemplate more tools to tell me about FI durations; trim;
Forward with my new used 1993 Civic DX w/OEM cruise control.
Prior to the addition of this system, a significant amount of gasoline
in the fuel tank used to evaporate and contribute significantly to air
pollution along with loss of gasoline and so less miles-per-gallon.
(E.g. one site said about 20% of a vehicle's emissions would be from
evaporating gasoline in the tank.) Now, when the pressure in the fuel
tank gets high enough (on, for example, a hot day) some of this
evaporated gasoline is vented to a charcoal canister. The canister is
a holding tank for the fumes. It is is typically mounted on the
passenger side firewall under the hood. The charcoal in the canister
absorbs some of the fumes and is generally a holding tank. Under
certain operating conditions, the car's computer signals the canister
purge valve to open, and a hose from the engine intake/throttle body
sucks the fumes into the intake for burning. The hose on the bottom of
the typical canister vents to atmosphere, so that the vacuum placed on
the canister when the engine is drawing from it does not collapse it.
Probably the biggest practical lesson I got out of this study was not
to top off my fuel tank by going beyond one click at the fuel pump.
Evidently overfilling risks putting liquid gasoline into the charcoal
canister, causing vacuum leak type problems for the engine control
system and generally negating performance of the evap system.
blah blah. I am paraphrasing a buncha web sites.
Agreed, and flame wars do tend to get out of hand and within a few days
everyone is fighting with everyone...
YEAH! AND ESPECIALLY WHEN MICHAEL PARDEE PUTS HIS
NOSE TO THE BACK OF YOUR POLYESTER WORK PANTS AS
YOUR PROCEED TO EXPEL YOUR HOT FOUL GUT ROT WHICH
WIDE EYED MICHAEL PROCEEDS TO SNIFF LIKE A LINE OF COCAINE.
THE LTTLE FART SNIFFER. RIGHT MICHAEL, I LOVE YOU VERY MUCH
BUT YOU ASKED FOR TOO MUCH FOR SUCH A ONE SIDED RELATIONSHIP.
IN ADDITION TO YOUR PERVERSION WITH HONDA CARS. BUT I'LL TELL
YA MR. PARDEE IS KNOWN TO USE A CAULKING GUN AND SHOOT A JAR
OF JIFFY PEANUT BUTTER UP HIS ASS THEN JUMP ON THE HOODS OF HONDAS
AND SHOW OFF HIS PENMANSHIP GIFT WITH HIS ASSHOLE.
RIGHT MICHAEL P A R DEE. EVERY TIME YOU'RE ON THE POT MICHAEL
YOU WILL BECOME OBSESSED AND START DOING THAT TO ALL HONDAS.
They never seem to get anywhere, either, even when the people involved are
intelligent and decent people. For that reason I have tried to abstain from
political wars online and to discourage them in the auto groups I frequent.
(No coffee for me, though - sorry - my stomache doesn't like it.) I used to
participate but decided it was not a good thing.
Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.