Close Call!

It is really unfortunate that there are not more opinions on this matter ; P

Mike,

You're not the only person who has ever played around in a parking lot with vehicles, it's just not relevant to the OPs question.

You keep saying to "try it", like you're the only one that's ever done it. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Changing into neutral will help regain control of a vehicle in a lot of situations, be it a 2WD, 4WD, or 10W Tandem dump truck

You truly don't know what type of training I've had or by whom, but honestly I think if I were the ultimate authority on any given subject, (which I'm not), you'd still try to argue with me, so I stop here.

I am just quoting the way the owners manual says to do a controlled decent. I have a hard time understanding why you don't think the Jeep engineers were correct, sorry for the argument, but.... what you recommend is dangerous.

If you read your owners manual, it is pretty plain about using part time low and a lower gear in the tranny for a decent as well as warning about severe understeer.

It's on page 45 in my Cherokee manual where it says WARNING: Do not coast in Neutral....You might lose control of the vehicle and on page 55 the above use low to descend at some speed for 'traction downhill'.

That's all my point is...

Mike

Spdloader wrote:

Don't you mean *our* water?

Earle, Colorado resident

Last post on this I promise:

I never said the Jeep engineers are wrong. I never said that was the wrong way to do a descent. It is my opinion that what is quoted in the manual is a mixture between the best way and what WON'T get them (Jeep) sued for liable. You have to use some horse sense along with instruction. I promise you my dad made me read the freakin' manual with my very first Jeep CJ5 in 1977 before I was allowed to take it off road.

What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO. Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.

Again, I have no debate with the descent. I was only addressing regaining control.

Your point about how to come down a hill was never lost on me, you were just addressing the opposite side of the incident. You were saying how he should have started off to begin with. I was not. I was simply saying I shifted into neutral in order to maintain control before the part of my drive that ALWAYS resulted in a sideways slide, in order to regain control. A maneuver I was taught that works each and every time I need it.

Your point; about how you "highly doubt" my prior law enforcement driver training, isn't clear to me. I don't understand why or how you doubt that. I don't understand why or how you know that all those vehicle accidents I investigated were the direct result of them shifting to neutral, but since I don't know you or your background, I won't make such assumptions about you as you did me.

Spdloader

Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.

When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels 'CANNOT' rotate!

When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even with the proportioning valve.

You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which loses traction.

If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2 wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional control.

You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.

It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.

Mike

Mike, I am a physicist (well I used to be) but I will be the first to admit that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control, because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have done it, but it's kind of scary.

I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you, better practice on the easy stuff first.

Earle

I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.

It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,

Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot scenario.+ Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control regained, back into gear and off you go.

Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front brakes are locked, the rear were first.

Works everytime without fail.

Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.

Here's my actual scenario:

You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will regain directional control. I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what actually happens.

Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without the accelerating part?

If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?

I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it. Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment. (Obvious insult returned, I owed you one) Spdloader

I guess all the 4x4 design engineers are totally wrong when they state your theory just doesn't work in practice.

Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....

I will stand by the 4x4 engineers, the Jeep manual and my 30 odd years of ice and snow driving. A Jeep won't pull out of a slide in neutral when in part time 4x4. You just keep on going the way you were at best or start doing 360's.

Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it. They originally advertised it as 'rear wheel anti lock brakes'. I remember when my Dad got it. He was so happy about straight line braking... It came into being to stop the rear end from swapping places with the front end in station wagons and pickups when they were unloaded. Jeep even had a variable one according to load in the MJ. I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.

Mike

Spdloader wrote:

lol Spdloader

Agreed. lol

It spreads the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your foot, except in ABS.

Another obvious dig.

Spdloader

If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.

That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...

It has been this way since the 60's.

Mike

I quit. Seriously.

Spdloader

Yes, you did the right thing.

Tom