Nutter Bypass Ignition Modification???

You obviously don't understand how NOx is created, how it's controlled, and how emission testing is done.

Anyone can tweak enough and get it to pass out the pipe. The problem is you also have to pass a visual and functional test as well as the emissions test.

Passing out the tailpipe alone may work in Canada, but it ain't gonna fly here.

'Trial and error' will get a bit expensive as well, unless the >Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit I see. I never told the OP

california folks

here were more than

California, where

Finally!

You admit it 'can' be done.....

I think you believe the 'Nutter' is more complicated than adding 2 hidden wires and setting the timing and carb to pre 1982 settings.

As far as the 'Nutter' goes, all the visual emissions junk can be left in place like I did for my first test until I found out I only needed the stuff I left working anyway like the EGR, PCV, canister, gas cap and air filter flaps for my 'visual' inspection.

All the miles of vacuum lines and solenoids can be left in place, they just have no function and the two 'new' wires needed for the Nutter can easily be tucked out of sight in the wiring harness with crimp on M/F connectors so it can be reversed in 10 minutes if needed.

You then just set the carb up for the best lean and keep your fingers crossed at the sniffer.

Norm Mitchell just showed up tonight in his 89 'Renegade' YJ for a visit after 2 years absence. This is the YJ gent I was quoting for his emissions.

He has to go for a new one in the next couple weeks and will post his new readings but here is his old ones without us 'trying' to pass NOx because he passed. We were working on HC's....

You are allowed 1015 in Ca and he got 1085 with a 'blown' CAT according to the 'mechanic' that sounds like you.

So he put a new CAT on and went up to 1512 NOx!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are his readings:

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Before: ASM test HC (132 allowed): 220 FAIL CO (1.24 allowed): 0.35 NO (1724 allowed): 1085 at idle HC (300): 3106 FAIL CO (1.50): 0.25

when I first starting this my CO was at 3.0 or so.. and NO was failing as well. Tinkering got them to passing levels, but nothing I did could make the HC reading move at all.

After cat installed: ASM test HC: 30 CO: 0.00 NO: 1512 at idle HC: 145 CO: 0.00

This was without using any additives. I was running esso 92 gas. My computer for the (stock) carb is disabled (nutter bypass)

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So we would get along much better if you stopped saying BS about things that 'could' be possible. I get 'set off' way too easy as well these days, the doctors are telling me that is due to stroke damage from a nasty car accident I was a passenger in a couple years back so I will apologize for doing that.

Oh and the OP said he was going to use a dyno to check the differences so he does have access to a 'tweak toy'.

Mike

bllsht wrote:

Sure, the numbers can be manipulated, but there is more to passing a smog test in California than just what's coming out the tail pipe. There are visual and functional parts of the test also. One of the functional tests is checking the timing, so there's no room to play there.

Yeah, I know what's involved, and I know what a big difference it makes. I told the OP that he'd have a problem passing NOx if he does this modification. I don't know if you understand why it makes such a big difference, or why I said that, so here's the reason.

In addition to EGR, spark advance control is also used to control the creation of NOx. The computer is what handles that job. It doesn't do a great job as far as performance is concerned. We all know they fall on their face around

3,000 RPM, but it does do the job of controlling NOx. The reason they run better with the computer out of the loop, is because it's not retarding the timing any more. So, you get great performance, but NOx skyrockets.

Try retarding the timing to pass smog, and all you do is fail the ignition timing functional test.

Another thing that gets disabled without the computer is the air injection system, which can make a big difference in HC & CO.

Since NOx testing came in to play, lean isn't necessarily the way to go anymore. Of course you don't want to be too rich, but lean will cause a higher combustion temp. In addition to that, the cat converter needs CO to achieve the reduction of NOx that it's supposed to do.

Don't tell me.... They test every two years up there.

There are two parts of the ASM test in California. 5015(50% @ 15 mph) and

2525(25% @ 25 mph). I don't know where you are, or where your test was performed, but according to Ontario's smog program web page, they only do the 2525 test. In California, you're only allowed up to 875 on the 2525 portion of the test for an 89 YJ 258.

If there were no adjustments between the two tests and the CAT was the only change made, I'd make sure he put the right cat on it. An oxidation cat won't do a thing for NOx. It's supposed to have a 3 way cat on it. Should be a dual bed cat with downstream air going into the middle, between the two beds.

Do they give you the CO2 and O2 numbers as well? They would help. Looking at the idle numbers, it's either missing really bad or the oxidation portion of the cat isn't working at all. Probably both.

From here, I can only guess, but that looks too lean to me. I'd expect to see a lower HC idle number. Also CO at 0.00 makes me think the same. Remember, lack of CO doesn't help NOx reduction either.

Nothing I've said is BS, and none of it is what 'could' happen. I told you what 'would' happen, and I told you why. If you need an explanation on something, I have no problem with doing that. Being attacked because you don't understand something is what's getting old.

He said he was going to take it to a smog test station for a pre-test. Those aren't free.

what 'would' happen, and I told you why.

Sigh.....

First you say:

you will fail the NOx portion of the emissions test miserably.

Then after 'much' prompting you say:

Anyone can tweak enough and get it to pass out the pipe.

I give up.....

Oh and Norm moved away 2 or 3 years ago. He just moved back to this city and stopped in for a beer. He doesn't need my help to pass emissions.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

what 'would' happen, and I told you why.

With timing set to factory specs, it will definitely fail miserably.

I also said that it takes more than passing out the pipe to pass a smog test in California. You tweak the timing enough to make up for the lack of spark control and you WILL fail the ignition timing check. Fail the timing check and you fail the smog test. Get it?

ROTFLMAO!

Gotcha.

SOB, I just found another of 'my' emissions slips and they put the NOx reading on it!!!!

1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada), no computer, base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like the book says, 92 octane ESSO gas, stock BBD carb set to best lean idle and ported on the timing advance and......

Drumroll........

On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.

16 ppm HC

0.11% CO

LOL!

That was on my 2003 test.

Darn it I knew I had my own numbers around for NOx somewhere.

So my 86 CJ7 set up just like it is would pass California emissions for an 89 YJ!!!!

Photo of the papers here:

And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG photo of the paperwork.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Oh, Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this was just the only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't have to pass that.

Good bye now bllsht.

;-p

Mike.

bllsht wrote:

I must have missed the part where it passed the visual or functional tests....Oh yeah, they didn't do any....

Apples and oranges.

you > what 'would' happen, and I told you why.

And yet I can get all my reading sweet without a catalytic converter.

And no I never mucked with the timing other than to go for best power which I have left alone for 5 or more years. Oops, late last year I did drop the timing down to 6 to see if it helped an overheating issue, it didn't, the waterpump was bad so it is back at 9.

So you just aren't going to stop with the BS eh.

Ok I will bite only because I am bored.

Just what 'functional' tests do you think the 258's Ford emissions computer will tell them about eh?

Don't forget that it has no data port or OBD crap so the 'functional' tests are the gas cap because they can pressurize that, they could watch the EGR move I guess and watch the air filter flaps move or vacuum test them. I guess you could vacuum test the canister too. And you could toss a timing light on it because it has no magnetic pickup for the computer. Maybe make the PCV rattle?

All that is moot, because all that is in place and working.

LOL!!!!!

Mike

bllsht wrote:

you > what 'would' happen, and I told you why.