Green Defender and caravan crashed on A1

On my way back from Lincoln on the A1 near Grantham (3:45) watching all the LRO show traffic go by in the northbound lane I saw what must have been a nasty crash. The fire brigade were in the process of cutting people free of a green Defender (90?) which was on its roof with a very long caravan on its side up the embankment amongst the trees a few yards further along. The passenger looked to be communicating with the fireman from what I could see trapped in the vehicle but the drivers side had come off worse and looked like the vehicle had ricocheted of the trees. The Defender was in front of where the caravan had landed and by comparison the caravan looked in quite good shape and must have only tipped up when it came into contact with the embankment. I imagine with a caravan of that size the vehicle can't have been going above 60 but what can have happened to cause such a catastrohic loss of control? I often tow transporters etc with my 90 and really don't want there to be a chance of a similar thing happening to me, does anyone know if the people in the Defender were ok?

Did anyone on their way to/from the LRO show this weekend see my black 90 cabriolet with chequerplate and galv rear crossmember on the opposite side of the A1 this weekend? I must have passed several hundred Land Rovers, it's quite distinctive and a lot of people looked interested just wondered if anyone on the group went by.

Fergus

Reply to
Fergus Kendall
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I wouldn't want to speculate for one minute as to the cause of this particular incident and hope that all those involved have only hurt their pride and nothing else.... there but for the grace of God go I and all that.

We had a small caravan a Eldis Mistral which we towed on Reggie (Thats going back a bit for those who remember him - fleetline rangie V8 in beige) when a wagon came past it was certainly noticeable. I wouldn't like to have been towing with anything smaller.

Likewise we now have a very big Ace Jubilee and again correctly loaded by the book and with a top of the range stabiliser then you still don't half feel the wagons coming past on the motorways. Especially the loons who seem to take some sad pleasure in getiing as close as possible to aggrivate the effect.

Ma and Pa used to tow a Eccles 5 berth behind a series II swb which was like a constant see saw battle all the way on motorways and I'm sure they learn't quickly getting a longer motor for future trips.

We can only guess to the cause of this one.

I've recently been reading uk.rec.caravaning and the number of crashes reported there which are obviously through poor outfit matching is scary.

I wouldn't think a 90 would be a poor match for any caravans weight wise but when you look at a caravan thats nearly twice the length of a car they make a pretty big lever on the steering etc... I'd prefer to even up the odds and get a car thats at least 2/3rds the length of the van at least purely on this aspect alone...then theres the weight thing to consider but as I said I don't think that should be much of an issue unless it's a super tanker caravan as seen behind many a transit.

Fingers crossed for the unfortunate family.

Lee D

-- Project Percy - Jaguar 4.2 and Auto in to Series IIa 88 see it @

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101Ambi '76 / IIa - Percy '64 / Rangie TD '90

alt.fan.landrover hall of fame -

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Reply to
Lee_D

Mandy was stationary for about an hour behind this - I turned off as I was lucky to come to a halt next to an exit slip. When it became clear that nothing was even edging forward I diverted, an even in the

101 beat her home by a clear 45 minutes.

Based on that I'd guess it was a pretty nasty accident. The roll-over protection in a standard Defender is hardly state of the art and there's lots of hard edges in there. So my thoughts are with all involved and hopefully someone can post with some good news about the outcome.

Wandering off-topic a little (and not making any point about this particular incident), it makes me wonder how big a factor suspension is in the stability of a towing outfit. I've recently had the rear shocks changed on the Disco, and it is like night and day. The car now stays level with only a fraction of the 'float' I had before. The scary bit is that I hadn't noticed how bad it was until I got it sorted after Warren told me it was an MoT fail. There's lots of high-mileage young 4x4 vehicles out there - how many have renewed the shockers before towing a big load?

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 '77 101FC Ambulance '95 Discovery V8i

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Reply to
Tim Hobbs

Bad weight distribution, I used to tow a lot with my limo believe it or not and if you go too fast with the balance wrong you get snaking where the tail wags the dog. Makes sence to carry most of the load in the car not the van, but I have seen people arrive at caravan sites and start pulling mountain bikes and all sorts of stuff out of there caravans.

-- Larry

"We are all of one mind, one equal mind, and if each of us persists in being the centre of our own existence we are all doomed to suffer at each others hands. I cannot exist on my own without you, neither can you be without me, what is the world wide web about after all?. We are interdependent whether we are aware of the fact or not"

Reply to
Larry

Not so much the weight of the caravan though but where it is, it should be as central as possible, not at the back where it can act like a pendulum.

How those Americans get away with towing 30 ft plus airstreams even with there motors puzzles me.

-- Larry

"We are all of one mind, one equal mind, and if each of us persists in being the centre of our own existence we are all doomed to suffer at each others hands. I cannot exist on my own without you, neither can you be without me, what is the world wide web about after all?. We are interdependent whether we are aware of the fact or not"

"Lee_D"

Reply to
Larry

In terms of "snaking" the 90 is just about the best vehicle to tow with, assuming that the caravan is loaded with enough nose weight to suit the

90 (usually more than the caravan manufacturer recommends) and the suspension is reasonably stiff. The worst to tow with, of the current Land Rover range would be a Series II Discovery.

When a caravan starts to move, the shorter the distance between the rear axle and the tow point of the towing vehicle the better. A long distance between the tow point and the rear axle gives the caravan more leverage to move the rear of the tow vehicle. The ideal is actually to get the tow point ahead of the rear axle (as in the 5th wheel setups). Weight certainly helps but given the leverage advantage that you can give the caravan by extending the tow point, the extra weight of, say, a Range Rover doesn't make it any more stable than a 90. Conversely the longer the gap between the caravan axle and the tow point the better it should tow, assuming that the centre of gravity of the caravan is forward of that axle.

The optimum setup is one where the caravan axle is at the back of the van with a 5th wheel setup on the tow vehicle. This is quite common in the USA where a tow point similar to a 5th wheel (but a bit more practical) is mounted into the bed of pickup trucks.

cheers

Dave W.

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Reply to
Dave White

On or around Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:55:03 +0100, Tim Hobbs enlightened us thusly:

dunno, but I was thinking the other day that our disco could usefully have new rear dampers. What did you fit? On cost grounds, I'm inclined to a pair of Paddock's finest, can afford to replace those every year if need be :-)

Various trips with the 110 and the big trailer, loaded with hay, so a uniform load, trailer plus load about 2½ tons have left me with the following info:

loaded trailer with hay puts a fair amount of noseweight onto the vehicle, but I doubt it's over the maximum allowed. With normal rear tyre pressures, got an impressive weave at about 45 mph. Upped the tyre pressures a bit, from about 34psi up to 38psi, this made it better, on the next trip put 'em up to about 44psi, and was better still.

Towing the big trailer behind the disco with the 110 on it the other day, gross trailer weight a good 3 tons; with the disco rear tyres at about

40psi, since the 110 is easily adjusted on the trailer I took the trouble to get the noseweight down to about 25Kg (estimated). Towed fine, although I kept the speed down to about 35 max., as I wasn't keen to take risks and wasn't in a hurry.

big trailer is a tandem axle, track about 8ft, LOA about 18-19ft. Putting the 110 on it takes it not far from the recommended tow weight, as it weighs about a ton empty.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

Nothing special, but not the Woodhead OEM rubbish. Warren supplied and fitted, so I don't know but I could ask. They are plain black, so no easy identification from peering under the wheelarch.

Depending on whether I swap the Disco for a 110, I may soon be taking them off to put a longer set of springs and shocks on. That should (hopefully) let me put the virtually unused 235.85 Trac Edges on, instead of forking out another £400 for a new set of standard fits. But I might just bugger up the resale value doing that, so I'm in a right quandary.

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 '77 101FC Ambulance '95 Discovery V8i

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Reply to
Tim Hobbs

Track edge on the 110 with big springs axle guards roof rack winch and more toys than you could poke a stick at........

IT WILL NEVER FIT!!!!!

;-)

Lee D

Reply to
Lee_D

Caravans actually being lighter and the weight not distributed evenly as with a load of hay are likely to be affected more by turbulence. I can recall the effects of being passed by Artics and such when towing a modest caravan of about 20ft in lenght and me towing with something a damn sight heavier than a Landy.

-- Larry

"We are all of one mind, one equal mind, and if each of us persists in being the centre of our own existence we are all doomed to suffer at each others hands. I cannot exist on my own without you, neither can you be without me, what is the world wide web about after all?. We are interdependent whether we are aware of the fact or not"

Reply to
Larry

.

We sat for an hour and 10 min in the queue the defender look in a right old state Last week we returned from holiday in Norfolk on the way down we were held up for an hour, a freelander towing a caravan had crashed at Norwich on the bridge over the river Thurne the caravan was on its side having overtaken the freelander which was now resting on the fence I believe everyone was ok On our return journey we were held up by another accident involving a caravan and this time a toymota, and now this I've towed with cars and with land rovers although I admit not many caravans and found in a car you are more conscious of the caravan/trailer and constantly correcting and checking, with a landrover it seems like you don't know it's there half the time, I once drove back from Windermere with a boat on the back forgot it was there lots of times and even drove back with the reversing clip on so no brakes I sometimes wonder if these people get the 4x4's and think they are invincible I'm not saying this was the case with these accident but I've seen a lot of 4x4 towers(?) driving a little too fast and a little irresponsibly (probably not the right word but you get my drift) like the white 110 and caravan who I struggled to get past at 80 on my way up the A1 just before the accident If you reading this SLOW DOWN this is not a dig at anyone (except the white 110) just my observations and opinions

On a lighter note really enjoyed the show and managed to talk SWMBO to go for the whole weekend next year

Andy

Reply to
Andy.Smalley

I would suppose with the more capable engines that are provided nowadays that there is an enormos temptation to ignore advice and speed limits and try to go with the flow of motorway traffic.

I know that with a modest 2.8 and two and half tons of towcar notwithstanding I used to get fed up from time to time with something else blocking the inside lane, put my foot down and accelerate past at an unwise speed.

I trust that if I ever take to towing again that the underpowered unit of a series three would not tempt me to do anything so silly.

I think the worst offenders for speeding along and never mind the consequences tend to be transits pulling trailers that can be alarmingly bouncing from one wheel to another as the oblivios drivers ignore every rule in the highway code.

-- Larry

"We are all of one mind, one equal mind, and if each of us persists in being the centre of our own existence we are all doomed to suffer at each others hands. I cannot exist on my own without you, neither can you be without me, what is the world wide web about after all?. We are interdependent whether we are aware of the fact or not"

"> >

Reply to
Larry

Hi Andy,

Did we meet? I'm really really terrible with names, so you may have been one of the many who said 'hello'!

Well done on talking the missus into next year. As a result of a night in a 101 with wife and teething 5 month old she has decided NOT to accompany me to Langley Farm this weekend. On the plus side, she has moved a lot closer to letting me have a 110.

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 '77 101FC Ambulance '95 Discovery V8i

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Reply to
Tim Hobbs

Ewww....memories!!!

I think the confined space of a 101 and any teething child would be enough to send anyone over the edge. It's bad enough when your locked in the same house as 'em much as I love the little darlings.

Theres screams.....theres "oh my fingers trapped between the Jag lump and the engine mount" scream.....and then theres teething screams.

So when can we expect to see the 4th berth getting filed ? ;-)

Lee D

-- Project Percy - Jaguar 4.2 and Auto in to Series IIa 88 see it @

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101Ambi '76 / IIa - Percy '64 / Rangie TD '90

alt.fan.landrover hall of fame -

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Reply to
Lee_D

No not this time I called round to the 101 area but nobody was home I showed her "grumble" she thought it was ok but didn't like the colour (don't tell Martin) so as we walked around I showed her more 101's and explained how wonderful they were, by the time we left she had gone " your not parking one of them outside the house" to "well, if we get a bit of spare cash I suppose.........." so it was all worth while Mind, it cost me a new kitchen and bathroom to get the series 2a so that would cost me big time, (still not finished the bathroom but you can't rush these jobs it's the preperation work y'see) so maybe next year or the year after, we'll see

Andy

Reply to
Andy.Smalley

The correct presure for 110 rears for towing/high speed is 48psi

Richard

Reply to
beamends

I suppose the inherant stability of the solo vehicle outweighs the "disadvantage" of the longer overhang. I'm currently building a 100" Defender because I prefer the stability of 100" over the 90, amazing what a difference 6 inches can make... so I'm told :-)

cheers

Dave W.

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Reply to
Dave White

On or around Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:58:03 +0100, beamends enlightened us thusly:

yeah, but I have non-standard tyres, 31x10.5R15 - they normally seem to like to run at lower pressure than standard, otherwise they wear the centre of the tread unduly. been experimenting, as you can tell :-)

Reply to
Austin Shackles

On or around Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:11:25 +0100, "Larry" enlightened us thusly:

Mind, if you get it balanced right it shouldn't be a problem. Seen caravans though where the back of the tow car is almost scraping on the deck.

Tim (sister's BF) has been experimenting with hie Rangie towing a heavy tri-axle trailer - reckons it tows best with very little nose-weight.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

Same here.

Having new springs and shocks on the Discovery made all the difference between feeling safe and getting a snake at 40mph. Last year when we went to Peterborough in the Disco, the caravan snaked a couple of times, luckily we were nearly there and Bruce slowed down to a snails pace. On further investigation we discovered that one of the shocks had started to leak. These have since been replaced along with the springs and its made the difference. Extra air in the tyres on the car also helps, correct nose weight and heavy items like the awning and poles, generator, gas bottle etc over the axle play another part in keeping stable.

Caravan wheels and tyres can get neglected too. The first time we went anywhere in our we lost a wheel - luckily Bruce stuck out for a twin axle caravan, insisted on it in fact, and we arrived in one piece. I hate to think what could have happened if there had been someone following us and the wheels had hit them. The studs had been on too tight by the previous owner, who had used them to hold a wheel cover on the wheels. The resulting friction between the wheel and wheel nut had caused the studs to wear through and eventually sheared off. Bruce replaced all four wheels, the tyres with van tyres, and the hubs before we drove back from Kent.

Reply to
Nikki

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